Comparing Richt To Smart Part 1

a_rattlera_rattler Posts: 149 ✭✭✭ Junior
edited December 6 in Football

A lot of people, upset over UGA's failure to beat Alabama for the second year in a row, are claiming that Kirby Smart is no better than Richt based on a similar record in the first three years. My previous rejoinders have focused on Donnan leaving Richt with much better players than Richt left Smart. Evidence: Richt took over in the 2001 season so Donnan's players were drafted in 2002-2005.

2002:
1 25 25 Charles Grant New Orleans Saints DE
3 8 73 Will Witherspoon Carolina Panthers LB
4 16 114 Randy McMichael Miami Dolphins TE
4 22 120 Terreal Bierria Seattle Seahawks DB
5 22 157 Jermaine Phillips Tampa Bay Buccaneers DB
5 31 166 Verron Haynes Pittsburgh Steelers RB
7 9 220 Josh Mallard Indianapolis Colts DE
7 22 233 Tim Wansley Tampa Bay Buccaneers DB

2003:
1 6 6 Johnathan Sullivan New Orleans Saints DT
1 20 20 George Foster Denver Broncos T
2 2 34 Boss Bailey Detroit Lions LB
2 5 37 Jon Stinchcomb New Orleans Saints T
3 13 77 Musa Smith Baltimore Ravens RB
6 37 210 Tony Gilbert Arizona Cardinals LB
7 28 242 J. T. Wall Pittsburgh Steelers RB

2004:

1 32 32 Benjamin Watson New England Patriots TE
2 27 59 Sean Jones Cleveland Browns DB
4 21 117 Robert Geathers Cincinnati Bengals DE
4 25 121 Bruce Thornton Dallas Cowboys DB

2005:
1 14 14 Thomas Davis Carolina Panthers DB
1 17 17 David Pollack Cincinnati Bengals DE
2 3 35 Reggie Brown Philadelphia Eagles WR
2 16 48 Odell Thurman Cincinnati Bengals LB
3 21 85 David Greene Seattle Seahawks QB
4 30 131 Fred Gibson Pittsburgh Steelers WR

Compare this with the first and second drafts under Smart:

2017
5 28 172 Isaiah McKenzie Denver Broncos WR

2018:

1 8 8 Roquan Smith Chicago Bears LB
1 23 23 Isaiah Wynn New England Patriots T
1 31 31 Sony Michel New England Patriots RB
2 3 35 Nick Chubb Cleveland Browns RB
3 2 66 Lorenzo Carter New York Giants LB
7 6 224 Javon Wims Chicago Bears WR

Yep. Donnan left Richt with 15 upperclassmen that were drafted in the first 2 years. Richt left Smart 7. More to the point: Richt left Smart a single lineman: Wynn. Richt inherited Grant, Sullivan, Foster and Stinchcomb, all first and second round picks! More to the point still: Donnan left Richt QB David Greene. Richt left Donnan with Greyson Lambert and Brice Ramsey. (If you want to credit Richt for Jacob Eason, I can credit Donnan for D.J. Shockley. Except that Shockley worked out far better for UGA than Eason did.) If look look in bold, see the tackles that Donnan left Richt. Note the total lack of similar players for Smart. (Isaiah Wynn moving from the interior OL to OT for his last season because UGA had absolutely no one else doesn't count. Remember instead that Wynn had to replace Tyler Catalina.)

Now granted, the underclassmen from Richt's last teams/Smart's first aren't all gone yet:. But if you look at this:
https://www.sicemdawgs.com/2016/08/uga-football-depth-chart-north-carolina-game-released/

If you think that it will come to the quantity or quality (any Ben Watsons, David Pollacks, David Greenes, Sean Jones?)

Bottom line: this is why Richt's best years were 2002-2004. The 2005 team may have won the SEC but they still lost 3 games. Yes the 2003 team did too, but only because they had to play LSU twice. More on that in part two:

https://forum.dawgnation.com/discussion/10307/comparing-richt-to-smart-part-ii

Comments

  • greygoose01greygoose01 Posts: 2,322 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    Wait, am I seeing deja vu?

  • sauceddawgsauceddawg Posts: 98 ✭✭✭ Junior

    I thought u were a troll but this is a great post. thanks

  • KaseyKasey Posts: 4,671 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    Man why did we fire Donnan?!?!?

  • BoroDawgBoroDawg Posts: 636 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @greygoose01 said:
    Wait, am I seeing deja vu?

    No.

  • SoFL_DawgSoFL_Dawg Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    I appreciate the work you put into this thread. It provokes thought. Still, what’s the basis of this post? Are there some who think we haven’t upgraded coaches? FFS, my neighbor has a bright orange F150 because he’s a cane and he’s ready to tar and feather Richt in year 3. We upgraded. Richt is an OK coach who did solid things at UGA. We thank him. We’re thankful he’s gone. Is there more to see here? Legit question btw...

  • KaseyKasey Posts: 4,671 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @SoFL_Dawg said:
    I appreciate the work you put into this thread. It provokes thought. Still, what’s the basis of this post? Are there some who think we haven’t upgraded coaches? FFS, my neighbor has a bright orange F150 because he’s a cane and he’s ready to tar and feather Richt in year 3. We upgraded. Richt is an OK coach who did solid things at UGA. We thank him. We’re thankful he’s gone. Is there more to see here? Legit question btw...

    I think the difference is this the first time in any of our lives where our previous head coach took another head coach job. Dooley retired, Goff never coached again, and same for Donnan. That goes back to the 1960s. I don’t think any of us know what to do.

    All I know is Richt took this program from a 3rd place SEC East team to one that could occasionally win the East and threaten to win the whole thing once every five years or so. He should be respected, but we don’t really need to keep bringing him up

  • levanderlevander Posts: 3,706 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    ;0> @SoFL_Dawg said:

    I appreciate the work you put into this thread. It provokes thought. Still, what’s the basis of this post? Are there some who think we haven’t upgraded coaches? FFS, my neighbor has a bright orange F150 because he’s a cane and he’s ready to tar and feather Richt in year 3. We upgraded. Richt is an OK coach who did solid things at UGA. We thank him. We’re thankful he’s gone. Is there more to see here? Legit question btw...

    It’s just a history lesson. Not everybody has to be arguing whether or not to fire somebody.

  • SoFL_DawgSoFL_Dawg Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @levander said:
    ;0> @SoFL_Dawg said:

    I appreciate the work you put into this thread. It provokes thought. Still, what’s the basis of this post? Are there some who think we haven’t upgraded coaches? FFS, my neighbor has a bright orange F150 because he’s a cane and he’s ready to tar and feather Richt in year 3. We upgraded. Richt is an OK coach who did solid things at UGA. We thank him. We’re thankful he’s gone. Is there more to see here? Legit question btw...

    It’s just a history lesson. Not everybody has to be arguing whether or not to fire somebody.

    Wasn’t asking you but thanks.

  • levanderlevander Posts: 3,706 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @SoFL_Dawg said:

    @levander said:
    ;0> @SoFL_Dawg said:

    I appreciate the work you put into this thread. It provokes thought. Still, what’s the basis of this post? Are there some who think we haven’t upgraded coaches? FFS, my neighbor has a bright orange F150 because he’s a cane and he’s ready to tar and feather Richt in year 3. We upgraded. Richt is an OK coach who did solid things at UGA. We thank him. We’re thankful he’s gone. Is there more to see here? Legit question btw...

    It’s just a history lesson. Not everybody has to be arguing whether or not to fire somebody.

    Wasn’t asking you but thanks.

    Any time.

  • GBALGBAL Posts: 60 ✭ Freshman

    @a_rattler said:
    A lot of people, upset over UGA's failure to beat Alabama for the second year in a row, are claiming that Kirby Smart is no better than Richt based on a similar record in the first three years. My previous rejoinders have focused on Donnan leaving Richt with much better players than Richt left Smart. Evidence: Richt took over in the 2001 season so Donnan's players were drafted in 2002-2005.

    2002:
    1 25 25 Charles Grant New Orleans Saints DE
    3 8 73 Will Witherspoon Carolina Panthers LB
    4 16 114 Randy McMichael Miami Dolphins TE
    4 22 120 Terreal Bierria Seattle Seahawks DB
    5 22 157 Jermaine Phillips Tampa Bay Buccaneers DB
    5 31 166 Verron Haynes Pittsburgh Steelers RB
    7 9 220 Josh Mallard Indianapolis Colts DE
    7 22 233 Tim Wansley Tampa Bay Buccaneers DB

    2003:
    1 6 6 Johnathan Sullivan New Orleans Saints DT
    1 20 20 George Foster Denver Broncos T
    2 2 34 Boss Bailey Detroit Lions LB
    2 5 37 Jon Stinchcomb New Orleans Saints T
    3 13 77 Musa Smith Baltimore Ravens RB
    6 37 210 Tony Gilbert Arizona Cardinals LB
    7 28 242 J. T. Wall Pittsburgh Steelers RB

    2004:

    1 32 32 Benjamin Watson New England Patriots TE
    2 27 59 Sean Jones Cleveland Browns DB
    4 21 117 Robert Geathers Cincinnati Bengals DE
    4 25 121 Bruce Thornton Dallas Cowboys DB

    2005:
    1 14 14 Thomas Davis Carolina Panthers DB
    1 17 17 David Pollack Cincinnati Bengals DE
    2 3 35 Reggie Brown Philadelphia Eagles WR
    2 16 48 Odell Thurman Cincinnati Bengals LB
    3 21 85 David Greene Seattle Seahawks QB
    4 30 131 Fred Gibson Pittsburgh Steelers WR

    Compare this with the first and second drafts under Smart:

    2017
    5 28 172 Isaiah McKenzie Denver Broncos WR

    2018:

    1 8 8 Roquan Smith Chicago Bears LB
    1 23 23 Isaiah Wynn New England Patriots T
    1 31 31 Sony Michel New England Patriots RB
    2 3 35 Nick Chubb Cleveland Browns RB
    3 2 66 Lorenzo Carter New York Giants LB
    7 6 224 Javon Wims Chicago Bears WR

    Yep. Donnan left Richt with 15 upperclassmen that were drafted in the first 2 years. Richt left Smart 7. More to the point: Richt left Smart a single lineman: Wynn. Richt inherited Grant, Sullivan, Foster and Stinchcomb, all first and second round picks! More to the point still: Donnan left Richt QB David Greene. Richt left Donnan with Greyson Lambert and Brice Ramsey. (If you want to credit Richt for Jacob Eason, I can credit Donnan for D.J. Shockley. Except that Shockley worked out far better for UGA than Eason did.) If look look in bold, see the tackles that Donnan left Richt. Note the total lack of similar players for Smart. (Isaiah Wynn moving from the interior OL to OT for his last season because UGA had absolutely no one else doesn't count. Remember instead that Wynn had to replace Tyler Catalina.)

    Now granted, the underclassmen from Richt's last teams/Smart's first aren't all gone yet:. But if you look at this:
    https://www.sicemdawgs.com/2016/08/uga-football-depth-chart-north-carolina-game-released/

    If you think that it will come to the quantity or quality (any Ben Watsons, David Pollacks, David Greenes, Sean Jones?)

    Bottom line: this is why Richt's best years were 2002-2004. The 2005 team may have won the SEC but they still lost 3 games. Yes the 2003 team did too, but only because they had to play LSU twice. More on that in part two:

    https://forum.dawgnation.com/discussion/10307/comparing-richt-to-smart-part-ii

    "A lot of people, upset over UGA's failure to beat Alabama for the second year in a row, are claiming that Kirby Smart is no better than Richt...." This just is NOT the case.... What 5? 6? Just like a few people hollaring for JFr's head early in season and media runnig with it to create a stir. Not a story.

  • UnderDog68UnderDog68 Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @Kasey said:
    Man why did we fire Donnan?!?!?

    Because he bit Loren Smith's head off on the sidelines when Loren was asking him why so many players were cramping up.

  • BankwalkerBankwalker Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    Anecdotal evidence. Notice the lack of any offensive skill players on the roster for Richt. Also much of that 16 recruiting class was because of Richt. Kirby did a god job holding on to Eason and the others. Chubb and Michel were special and having a left tackle good enough to go in the first rd is HUGE when you have a freshman QB. Kirby also inherited the #2 & #3 career yardage leaders in the storied running back history of the University of Georgia. Think about that. I also don't think David Greene would have been nearly the same QB without Richt’s tutelage. Scouting is much better today, meaning A lot of those late round selections would have been given the Trent Thompson treatment today. I’ll take the team and overall favorable view of the program when Richt left to the one Donnan left. People were looking at UGA when Donnan left saying,”Georgia could be a really good program.” They said Kirby was taking over a sleeping giant that was very close.

  • GrayDawgGrayDawg Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭ Senior

    @Bankwalker said:
    Anecdotal evidence. Notice the lack of any offensive skill players on the roster for Richt. Also much of that 16 recruiting class was because of Richt. Kirby did a god job holding on to Eason and the others. Chubb and Michel were special and having a left tackle good enough to go in the first rd is HUGE when you have a freshman QB. Kirby also inherited the #2 & #3 career yardage leaders in the storied running back history of the University of Georgia. Think about that. I also don't think David Greene would have been nearly the same QB without Richt’s tutelage. Scouting is much better today, meaning A lot of those late round selections would have been given the Trent Thompson treatment today. I’ll take the team and overall favorable view of the program when Richt left to the one Donnan left. People were looking at UGA when Donnan left saying,”Georgia could be a really good program.” They said Kirby was taking over a sleeping giant that was very close.

    Great points. I'd be curious to see @a_rattler or someone do a comparison of how good each of our rivals was then vs now. It's pretty obvious that the east has been there for the taking the last few years. What was it like during the first few years under Richt?

    I'm not a huge Richt fan, and personally believe Kirby has been a big upgrade, but I enjoy the back and forth analysis.

  • BankwalkerBankwalker Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @GrayDawg said:

    I'm not a huge Richt fan, and personally believe Kirby has been a big upgrade, but I enjoy the back and forth analysis.

    I was proud to say that Mark Richt was our coach. He made men and contributing members of society out of those kids who he took from very disadvantaged socioeconomic situations.

    I am also very pleased with Kirby. He seems to be running a clean and disciplined program of which we can all be proud. I just fail to understand the mouth-breathing need to continue bashing Richt 3 years down the road. What's the point? Do Kirby and Richt have the same record after 3 years? Yes. Do the vast majority of people think the last 3 years have us positioned to seize far greater success than we enjoyed after the first 3 years of Richt? Yes. Do we owe the longtime Richt bashers a show of thanks and apology for waiting so long to act? Hayul to the no. Those same idiots will be the first ones to be bashing Kirby if we fall just short again next season. They would have been better Auburn fans.

  • PerroGrandePerroGrande Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭ Senior
    edited December 7

    @UnderDog68 said:

    @Kasey said:
    Man why did we fire Donnan?!?!?

    Because he bit Loren Smith's head off on the sidelines when Loren was asking him why so many players were cramping up.

    Also because he lost to Florida and Tech three years in a row and Auburn for the last two years! You want to make the UGA alumni mad enough to fire you? Lose to UF, AU, and Tech every year. I think that's what cooked Donnan's goose, especially Tech. That 2001 class was incredible. I don't know how much of that was Richt, though, because he took over in early December. Also, I would look at how many of the players actually made the NFL, not the draft. Some players get drafted and don't make the cut, and other guys, like Bellamy, make the NFL but weren't drafted. Other than that being some fun history, I would just add that Kirby is recruiting so well, I would expect championships and a revolving door to the NFL in the coming years. I don't ever recall as many true freshmen playing for UGA as this year. And, they won the SEC East and came ever so close to knocking off #1 and making the playoffs. This bodes very, very well for UGA in the next few years.

  • GrayDawgGrayDawg Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭ Senior

    @Bankwalker said:

    @GrayDawg said:

    I'm not a huge Richt fan, and personally believe Kirby has been a big upgrade, but I enjoy the back and forth analysis.

    I was proud to say that Mark Richt was our coach. He made men and contributing members of society out of those kids who he took from very disadvantaged socioeconomic situations.

    I am also very pleased with Kirby. He seems to be running a clean and disciplined program of which we can all be proud. I just fail to understand the mouth-breathing need to continue bashing Richt 3 years down the road. What's the point? Do Kirby and Richt have the same record after 3 years? Yes. Do the vast majority of people think the last 3 years have us positioned to seize far greater success than we enjoyed after the first 3 years of Richt? Yes. Do we owe the longtime Richt bashers a show of thanks and apology for waiting so long to act? Hayul to the no. Those same idiots will be the first ones to be bashing Kirby if we fall just short again next season. They would have been better Auburn fans.

    I agree. Just because I wasn't a fan of his coaching doesn't mean I didn't think he was a good person. If I'm not mistaken, it was a few Richt disciples that got the discussion rolling again because of a few questionable calls Kirby made against Alabama. So it goes both ways. As I'm sure the Fromm/Fields thing will flare up every time JF11 has a bad game. I've never understood the need to pick sides but most of us tend do it in some form or fashion.

  • BankwalkerBankwalker Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate
    edited December 8

    @PerroGrande said:

    @UnderDog68 said:

    @Kasey said:
    Man why did we fire Donnan?!?!?

    Because he bit Loren Smith's head off on the sidelines when Loren was asking him why so many players were cramping up.

    Also because he lost to Florida and Tech three years in a row and Auburn for the last two years! You want to make the UGA alumni mad enough to fire you? Lose to UF, AU, and Tech every year. I think that's what cooked Donnan's goose, especially Tech. That 2001 class was incredible. I don't know how much of that was Richt, though, because he took over in early December. Also, I would look at how many of the players actually made the NFL, not the draft. Some players get drafted and don't make the cut, and other guys, like Bellamy, make the NFL but weren't drafted. Other than that being some fun history, I would just add that Kirby is recruiting so well, I would expect championships and a revolving door to the NFL in the coming years. I don't ever recall as many true freshmen playing for UGA as this year. And, they won the SEC East and came ever so close to knocking off #1 and making the playoffs. This bodes very, very well for UGA in the next few years.

    I tend to support the current coach for too long. I thought Donnan was close to turning the corner but was done with him when he went for two against Tech after we scored to pull within 9. They were up 15 to a vastly more talented team and we scored a TD. I think the play there is to keep your team in the game by kicking the extra point to make it an 8pt difference. Had we converted then yeah it worked but once it failed the game was over regardless of what our D or Tech's offense did the rest of the way. At that very moment I said to fire him because his coaching decision had taken his team out of the game too early. That was me but I know people who wanted to fire him when he was giving QC hugs on the sideline against USC instead of pulling him after the 3rd and then 4th interception. I still cant believe he threw 5 interceptions in one game. Man was that horrible to watch.

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