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Baseball - Your Top-5 Starting Rotation w/ One Closer and Three Honorable Mentions
After some discussion w/ a few board members, we've come to the decision that we will not restrict this list to being era-specific, though you can def use that in your calculus for why you include a certain pitcher. Current pitchers cannot be included because their career is still in progress. I also advise striking steroid pitchers (Clemens for example) from the list, but if you think he still belongs, that's cool. We can also provide brief explanations as to why we chose who we did to spark some debate. This was INCREDIBLY difficult to compile w/ plenty of room for debate. You also get three honorable mentions and one closer.
WARNING: W-hitey is a no-no word here....
Please no political content here. Thanks.
My list is in no particular order:
- Greg Maddux - The ultimate pitcher's pitcher and to keep his ERA where he did during the steroid era was nothing short of a baseball miracle. Also winning over 300 games in that era makes him a shoe-in to my mind.
- Walter Johnson - I don't think I have to qualify this decision.
- Sandy Koufax - This was debatable in my mind, but I firmly believe that he would have even better numbers than he did if it weren't for his arthritis. I also need a LH at this point.
- Cy Young - This seems obvious but it wasn't as easy of a choice as you might think. 511 Wins, 20 game winner 15 times, 30 game winner 5 times. But like W Johnson, it was a different time in baseball. You have to pose those hypothetical questions in your mind about eras, but I can't exclude him or Johnson based on when they played.
- W.hitey Ford - 33 straight scoreless innings in the WS.
CLOSER: Mariano Rivera
Honorable Mentions:
- Bob Gibson - There are times when I think he belongs on the list above. He was scary as hell and just as clutch. He also had the greatest single season performance of any pitcher in history, '68 and still holds the WS single game strikeout (17) record to this day.
- Nolan Ryan - Pure power and more no-no's than anyone, but never won the Cy. I expect to get catch some heat (pun intended) for not putting him in my list above.
- Phil Niekro - Bias admitted, but his uniqueness and durability makes me include him. I still think he had the best knuckleball ever and another example of a pitcher's pitcher.
Okay - I know I've left off some vital names (Mathewson, Seaver, et al) but this is for fun and debate. Hope everyone enjoys...spring is right around the corner guys. CHOP CHOP.
Comments
1. Greg Maddux....no need to say more. Guy was a dominant force in the middle of the steroid era.
2. Walter Johnson....dude threw a million innings a season with a concrete block for a ball. Need to examine some remains as he can't be human.
3. Cy Young...seriously? The award is named after him.
4. Randy Johnson....maybe last 300 game winner...5 Cy Youngs....led league 9x in strikeouts...highest strikeouts ratio per 9 inning of any pitcher in history with 1500 innings pitched.
5. Pedro Martinez....had the nastiest stuff I have ever seen with my own eyes. 4th highest winning percentage ever, 2.93 career era is 6th lowest of pitchers with 2500 innings pitched. His strikeout ratio vs 9 innings pitched is 2nd only to Randy Johnson among pitchers with 1500 innings pitched. Only pitcher ever to record 3k strikeouts in less than 3000 innings pitched. 3 time Cy Young winner....5 times lowest era throughout the season in MLB....won the pitching Triple Crown in 1999. And oh yeah did this in the steroid era.
Closer....The Sandman....only choice here.
Honorable Mentions....
1. Bob Gibson....another intimidating figure...lowered the mound becuase of this guy. Pure force that was absolute clutch in his biggest moments.
2. Christy Mathewson....3 complete game shutouts in 1905 WS for the Giants....2x won pitching Triple Crown
3. Sandy Koufax...arm issues hurt his final stats but any one who has seen him throw was in awe.
As you can tell, I am a little biased to the live ball and steroid era....not to mention the bats these guys use nowadays. The game changes for sure but hitters today are way more advanced top to bottom than they were 50-60 or even 80 years ago.
Off topic question I guess and I'm quite sure I wont get a response, but if u had a Prime Pedro Martinez, Prime Randy Johnson and Prime Curt Shilling in the same rotation together for say 10 seasons even with Bobby Cox as Mgr. and a decidely above average lineup anchored by Chipper and Andruw Jones for MOST if not all of that run how many World Series would that team win?
Already happened, just different HOFers. One! You would win ONE WS with those guys and Bobby Cox.
I say somewhere between 3 and 5 World Series Titles would b expected and likely with 3 studs like Martinez> Smoltz, Randy Johnson> Glavine and and Schilling and Maddux probably a push, I'd say 3 because Chipper Jones (Mr. Brave himself for my $$$) said POWER ARMS win in the Playoffs and he faced enough of every kind of arm to b especially qualified to know. So yeah if U REALLY had 3 dominant starters that stayed together that long u luck into 3 even if I was the Mgr. know what Im sayin??? Just sayin... 😎😎😎
I looked very closely at both Pedro and R Johnson as well. How could you not? This is a nearly impossible task, but a lot of fun. As for that question @MeR3htid (don't worry about it being off-topic; part of this thread is for back and forth debate anyway - no worries) I would say that it would depend on our offense. I also think that, while Cox was one of the greatest regular season managers of all-time, he wasn't the best post-season manager. In fact, he could be a liability at times. I'm a believer in who has the "hot-hand," and too often I saw him go with a standard lineup as opposed to who was tearing it up at the plate.
BTW - I like the new board but I miss the edit button (or am I not seeing it) because it kept me from multi-posting, but @TMazz2009 - I'm also biased against the steroid/live ball era. It's funny though, because as far ass PED's are concerned, I know Willy Mays (and a lot of other players) used amphetamines. Granted, they don't do what steroids did and didn't almost ruin the game, but they did have an impact.
Maddux
Seaver
Gibson
Spahn
Pedro
@kelly_b flawless sir. I cannot argue with your OP. This collection of yours is supreme. I would’ve picked exactly this same grouping. These men truly were the “Master’s of the game” WOW!
@MeR3htid Maybe 6, or perhaps 7 WS titles with that lineup IMO. Dang.
In no particular order:
- Matthewson
- Gibson
- Johnson, Walter
- Maddux
- Pedro
Honorable mention: Seaver
Closer: The Eck. The mustache pushes him past Rivera for me.
I’m staying away from guus like Walter Johnson, Cy Young, and Christy Matthewson. Too hard to compare such vastly different eras when scouting and player development severely limited the ability of teams to field the very best possible hitters on the planet. How many Hank Aarons could have been playing MLB in those days but for a few unfortunate rules that kept blacks out of the game.
My Five:
Greg Maddox
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson - the mound was LOWERED in his prime, in 1969. Gibson’s 1968 season is one of the most dominant on record.
Closer - Dennis Eckersley was unhittable by anyone not named Kirk Gibson.
Agree with @christopherules, you set the bar pretty high @kelly_b. Hard to argue with your choices.
I think Maddux, Koufax, Cy Young, and Walter Johnson are automatic.
I think the 5th spot is open to debate, and you can certainly make a case for Gibson, Ryan, Spahn, Martinez, or Randy Johnson.
Others that deserve mention are Bob Feller, Juan Marichal, Steve Carlton and Dwight Gooden (before the fall).
EDIT (above): I left out Mathewson, who probably has as much claim to the 5th spot as anyone.
Great call on Steve Carlton. Dwight Gooden had no longevity but was as good as anyone for a brief stint.
I also forgot to mention closer.
Rivera is the obvious choice based on numbers, and Eckersley's combined career as a starter and a closer is mind-blowing. Makes sense that those are the top two in discussion above:
Honorable mentions:
Bruce Sutter defined the position in the 1980's, when my baseball fever was at its peak.
Craig Kimbrel is on pace to break Rivera's records if he stays healthy.
Harvey Haddix started closing games long before it was cool.
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Love this thread.