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Comments
for the record I enjoy the conversation so trying to set tone as it’s all a fun subjective opinion:
Rodman’s stats- his stint with the bulls was in his prime which was from 91 to 98 - the best version of what he excelled at came on the bulls
93- He has no challenges? Just seems like such a weak excuse to only came back 16 months later. In the Last Dance, I cant remember who said it, but they said that they thought Michael was mentally done in 93 and that’s why he retired. I’ll try to find out who said it.
93- Suns were good but I’d take any recent nba champion for the past 20 yrs to beat that suns team. I think the Raptors, Warriors, Cavs, Warriors, Spurs, Heat, Lakers, Pistons and Celtics all beat that suns team - maybe the suns would take the Mavs
95- ya but let’s not also gloss over that MJ wasn’t just sitting on the beach not working out. He was playing minor league baseball- it’s not like he was John Kruk out there. People pretend and automatically just give him a pass and again he’s the Goat but he lost a playoff series in his prime just like every other top player out there. Why can’t we just say it how it is he lost on a turnover didn’t even take the last shot.
96- I remember Kemp just fine prolly would be a HOF if it wasn’t for the nose candy and cheeseburgers. Still think that most of today’s NBA championship team would take these Sonics.
The bulls had two players who weren’t just HoFs but they were the best at their position in the league. MJ = best SG + GOAT Pip = best SF and it wasn’t even close. The bulls 96-98 = the Warriors 17-18 just too much talent to overcome both had advantages in payroll that gave their teams more to work with
MJ is the greatest - but I just get so annoyed with how people create this flawless image of him, I guess we can thank the best branding machine Nike for that.
Kobe RIP- didn’t even win finals mvp for over half of his rings. Kobe is ranked #10 on my all time list.
Sir MJ retired. His father compared to ITs sister isnt comparable. I'd give any athlete a pass if they feel drained and unchallenged... MJ played 20 games before the Magic series. Meaning everyone else was primed and ready MJ was getting back in shape.
So in total MJ played against a bunch of HOFs and won. A more dominant Eastern Conference FULL of HOF players. MJ literally stopped many teams getting a ring. He's not perfect but he's the far superior player (mental, physical, etc) over any NBA guy Ive seen in my lifetime.
Rodman only played 3 years with the Bulls. The last 3 peat.
Highlighting 95 is 20 games. Baseball training isnt NBA training WAY more conditioning, different skill set focuses, etc.
Pippen was #2 after 95 in my opinion. Grant Hill was a monster until the 2000's
I can't remember the source but I remember all the controversy as it was front page news back then. I remember reading some online info that put it all together and that was the conclusion. My Dad followed it pretty close when it was happening. But yeah the theory was that his dad was murdered by loan shark/mafia types for gambling debts either incurred by himself or MJ. The NBA didn't want to tarnish either the leagues brand or MJ's so he retired to play baseball due to his Dad's death. Either way I just didn't want people to call him a quitter cause that's not what really happened.
LeBron would be a different player if he had to actually play buy official basketball rules...double dribble, traveling, carrying the ball...and imagine if he had Lambier mauling him every time he was in the paint. You so much as breathe on King James it's a foul.
Nice post but Kobe at #10???
Shaq is the most dominant player of all time making him the most valuable on those early 2000 Lakers squads but Kobe was the glue.
Best defender, the playmaker, scorer. Only way I see Kobe at 10 is if you pick a starting five, Kobe doesn’t start at his position all time. I think Kobe is better than Magic and Duncan on all time starting 5 though.
GOAT starting 5: Magic, MJ, Lebron, Duncan, Kareem
Next up: Isiah T., Kobe, Durant/Bird (too close to call now), K. Malone, Shaq/Wilt
I know he was a gambler but that’s crazy if that’s what happened.
I thought it was just a car jacking, wrong place, wrong time, nice car. If it is true, NBA kept that under wraps well. Seems like a 30 for 30 waiting to happen.
Good stuff. It was an amazing cast of characters MJ played against. Can't say that about Lebron.
Easiest debate imo to separate the two. Count the number of HOFs MJ kept from getting rings:
Lebron is a monster but he just isn’t MJ
mood and tone- this a fun subjective conversation, I know this is not a popular opinion but I enjoy the conversation 😀
We all grieve differently but why isn’t IT sister dying comparable MJs dad? Man, I have lost a sibling and a parent and I’ll tell you what both are the worst. The hurt compares quite the same to me but that’s me. People grieve differently for IT he played immediately, if Jordan’s dad death is the reason for the retirement then he took off 1.5 yrs to grieve. That’s fine but again it’s this idea if you criticize the GOAT then everyone comes out of the wood works to rally why MJ is not to be touched.
I think Grant Hill could have overtaken Pippen before he got hurt but take a look at their numbers: they’re almost identical but Scottie is arguably the best defensive player ever and Scottie’s numbers are the same even being the 2nd option. Hill was considered the #1 on those teams- Dumar was getting old and Stackhouse I think tried to be the number 1 but there is a reason he was traded. I think you are overlooking how good Scottie was defensively while contributing almost identically offensively.
Grant Hill
Pippens
I am aware Rodman was on the bulls for 3 yrs, his stats above where answering a question from Kasey about Rodman not being in his prime on the bulls team. The graphic was showing how his prime overlapped his time on the bulls.
Yes MJ did beat a lot of HOF, the point of me going through each team he beat in the finals was to show that the bulls were suppose to win. His teams were more talented. To his credit he did win, that doesn’t always happen, we can rewind to the Warriors losing the Raptors (I know team was depleted), Mavs beating the Heat, and the Pistons beating the Lakers in 04. He did stop a ton of teams from getting rings, he had a better team.
If you go and look at every finals winner you see that every team had at least 2 HOFs in there primes besides 2 teams (Mavs and 04 Pistons). I stopped checking once I hit 1980. I have never looked at the losing team and how many HOF in prime they had- you have given me hw.
Most competitive teams in the 90s had 1 HOF in prime and if you were luck you had 2. The bulls had again not just 2 or 3 HOFs they had 2 best at their respective positions. The only teams that had anything close were the Jazz- arguably the best pg in the 90s and the best PF in the 90s (arguably ever - I’d put Tim there KM 2nd) and the Rockets the Dream was the best C in the game at the time and grossly underrated and Clyde who’s a HOF and probably #3 at position in 90s (MJ, Reggie, then Clyde)
I don’t think East was as good as you remember, the defense in the 90s is incredibly over rated. Players leaned on physical play more than actually playing team defense. The Pacers had 1 HOF, the Heat had 1 HOF, the knicks 1 HOF, Magic 1 HOF (penny was great though). The bulls were so much more talented to the rest of the league, it was a cheat code basically the KD warriors teams.
love the conversation - we prolly aren’t going to change each other’s mind but I enjoy it.
The entire Celtics team...Bird, Walton, McHale, Parrish...
Grant is a nice call but those knees were trash. Still are till this day. Was at a fundraising event in Miami and got a chance to meet him. His knees are almost as bad as Kenny “the Jet“ Smith.
MJ didn’t catch them in their prime though, similar to the 91 ring vs. Magic. That would’ve been a challenge and fun to watch. I’d like to see Pippin and Bird go at it.
i'm fine..it's all barstool talk. I just completely disagree with you haha...
I think peak Rodman was Pistons Rodman. That first year on the Bulls was really good, but he ruined those Spurs teams and seemed to only care about getting rebounds and not much else. I noticed you didn't have his point average on there. Probably because he often kicked out after a board when he probably could lay it up.
Getting Madonna and Carmen Electra? Priiiiiiiiiiiiiiiime Rodaman
If Lebron could’ve beat the Celtics without going to Miami, maybe the convo is different. Can’t tell me you can win 60+ games in regular season and in same breath say he didn’t play with anyone when playoffs start.
The beat downs Pierce and Garnett gave him, the finals loss to Mavs (which Lebron folded down the stretch), being passive and hiding behind the right basketball play in clutch situations, and playing with the 3rd best SG of all time (in his prime) are detractors in my mind. Still second best if all time and we may never see another Lebron, ever.