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The Last Dance



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    JRT812JRT812 Posts: 4,697 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    So if I am reading everything right....Pistol changed the game, MJ had a great supporting crew, and bron isn’t as good as Pistol

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    orlandoorlando Posts: 2,322 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    Pete was smooth and made passing and shooting look easy but I don’t think he could take over a ballgame like Lebron can on both ends of the floor. With that said if MJ played in today’s NBA, he would be even more dominant.

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    Dawgy_FreshDawgy_Fresh Posts: 895 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    didn’t mean to quote Pgjackson

    Love the docuseries. I am going to vent (tldr), MJ is the GOAT but somehow to me feels over rated. People treat MJ like he had zero flaws and made every single buzzer beater. The bulls in the 90s were the equivalent of the warriors team, especially the 2nd threepeat who had 3 HOFs in their prime no other team had anything close. It was rare to get two HOFs in their prime on the same team back then. Take a look at who MJ beat:

    91- Lakers, Magic’s final healthy year with an aging Worthy vs a young Pippen and Jordan in primes

    92 - Blazers, Clyde the Glide that’s it- they had some good role players but not a threat

    93 - 1 HoF Barkley, grant it KJ was awesome and I bet he gets in eventually but not only are MJ and Pippen HOFs they are the best at their positions in the NBA at the time- suns had no shot

    94- MJ did quit, this is where people lose me on how they just give him a pass. Even in the documentary in episode 1 they said mj was tired emotionally and needed a break. Can you imagine if any player did that in today’s game? People say it was his dad’s death, didn’t Isaiah Thomas Jr play like a day after his sister died? Don’t make excuses for him, he can still be the goat and take a break from playing for 1.5 yrs.

    95- people forget he lost the series against the Magic in the playoffs. I hear people say MJ would’ve won 2 more if he didn’t retire- well he lost in the playoffs

    96- Sonics- 1 HOF- I love The Glove and they had a couple of all stars like Kemp and Schrempffff but no way this team could beat 3 HOF in their primes

    97 and 98 -Jazz- I think these teams were the best teams that MJ played against in the finals but still 3 HOFs in their primes vs 2 HOFs in their primes

    When you break it down no wonder MJ never played a game 7, his teams were better and oh ya better coaches with the goat coach.

    I really do love MJ, I have like every shoe of his, I had posters of him on my walls as a kid and still think he’s the best to ever play. He just doesn’t walk on water to me like everyone claims.

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    KaseyKasey Posts: 28,916 mod

    You actually think Rodman was in his prime? Beg to differ on that one.

    93 retirement...Jordan had no challengers left. He conquered everyone.

    93 Suns team took them to the limit, which is probably why Jordan left the game

    95, Jordan was out most of the season. Didn't come back until March, in baseball shape, without a frontcourt presence and almost took down the Orlando Magic Tricks. So yeah he lost, but he wasn't full strength Jordan. Let's not revise or gloss over history here.

    '96: if george karl was smart enough to put Payton on Jordan earlier, maybe the Sonics beat them or at least get it to a Game 7. Reign Man was no joke. Don't let what eventually happen to him cloud your memory of how good that Sonics team really was.

    Jordan didn't go to a game 7 because he was that good. His force of personality and will to win wouldn't let it get that far once he unlocked the triangle.

    There will be more skilled basketball players. Maybe someone more skilled and talented than Lebron. But there will never be another stone cold killer like MJ who will not rest until you are beaten. Lebron ain't about htat life. Kobe is the only one who comes somewhat close, and he lost 2 finals series.

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    AnotherDawgAnotherDawg Posts: 6,761 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate
    edited April 2020

    Since we're talkin' basketball, I just want to put in a good word for Julius Erving and Charles Barkley, for personal reasons.

    I lived outside of Philly when Dr. J played for the Sixers, and a case can be made that he was the best player of his era, even better than Bird and Magic. I'm not going to argue that though, because I think the Celtics and Lakers championships speak for themselves. But his style of play definitely paved the way for MJ.

    I had left Philly by the time Barkley arrived, but I happened to see him up close when he was at Auburn, and that guy was a freak. In college he was about 6'4" and 280 lbs. But he could jump through the roof, dominate the boards, and drive the length of the court like a guard. It was really something to see.

    Erving and Barkley don't quite measure up to MJ, but I think both would be a bigger part of the "best ever" discussion if they had won more championships.


    Footnote- I met Erving in Atlanta some years ago, when he bought a golf course in Tucker. I shook his hand (biggest hand I've ever seen/felt) and told him he was a hero of mine. He couldn't have been more gracious, super nice and humble.

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    Dawgy_FreshDawgy_Fresh Posts: 895 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate
    edited April 2020

    for the record I enjoy the conversation so trying to set tone as it’s all a fun subjective opinion:

    Rodman’s stats- his stint with the bulls was in his prime which was from 91 to 98 - the best version of what he excelled at came on the bulls

    93- He has no challenges? Just seems like such a weak excuse to only came back 16 months later. In the Last Dance, I cant remember who said it, but they said that they thought Michael was mentally done in 93 and that’s why he retired. I’ll try to find out who said it.

    93- Suns were good but I’d take any recent nba champion for the past 20 yrs to beat that suns team. I think the Raptors, Warriors, Cavs, Warriors, Spurs, Heat, Lakers, Pistons and Celtics all beat that suns team - maybe the suns would take the Mavs

    95- ya but let’s not also gloss over that MJ wasn’t just sitting on the beach not working out. He was playing minor league baseball- it’s not like he was John Kruk out there. People pretend and automatically just give him a pass and again he’s the Goat but he lost a playoff series in his prime just like every other top player out there. Why can’t we just say it how it is he lost on a turnover didn’t even take the last shot.

    96- I remember Kemp just fine prolly would be a HOF if it wasn’t for the nose candy and cheeseburgers. Still think that most of today’s NBA championship team would take these Sonics.

    The bulls had two players who weren’t just HoFs but they were the best at their position in the league. MJ = best SG + GOAT Pip = best SF and it wasn’t even close. The bulls 96-98 = the Warriors 17-18 just too much talent to overcome both had advantages in payroll that gave their teams more to work with

    MJ is the greatest - but I just get so annoyed with how people create this flawless image of him, I guess we can thank the best branding machine Nike for that.

    Kobe RIP- didn’t even win finals mvp for over half of his rings. Kobe is ranked #10 on my all time list.

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    ThelordjohnsonThelordjohnson Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    Sir MJ retired. His father compared to ITs sister isnt comparable. I'd give any athlete a pass if they feel drained and unchallenged... MJ played 20 games before the Magic series. Meaning everyone else was primed and ready MJ was getting back in shape.

    So in total MJ played against a bunch of HOFs and won. A more dominant Eastern Conference FULL of HOF players. MJ literally stopped many teams getting a ring. He's not perfect but he's the far superior player (mental, physical, etc) over any NBA guy Ive seen in my lifetime.

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    ThelordjohnsonThelordjohnson Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    Rodman only played 3 years with the Bulls. The last 3 peat.

    Highlighting 95 is 20 games. Baseball training isnt NBA training WAY more conditioning, different skill set focuses, etc.

    Pippen was #2 after 95 in my opinion. Grant Hill was a monster until the 2000's

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    deutcshland_dawgdeutcshland_dawg Posts: 1,595 mod

    I can't remember the source but I remember all the controversy as it was front page news back then. I remember reading some online info that put it all together and that was the conclusion. My Dad followed it pretty close when it was happening. But yeah the theory was that his dad was murdered by loan shark/mafia types for gambling debts either incurred by himself or MJ. The NBA didn't want to tarnish either the leagues brand or MJ's so he retired to play baseball due to his Dad's death. Either way I just didn't want people to call him a quitter cause that's not what really happened.

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    pgjacksonpgjackson Posts: 17,856 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    LeBron would be a different player if he had to actually play buy official basketball rules...double dribble, traveling, carrying the ball...and imagine if he had Lambier mauling him every time he was in the paint. You so much as breathe on King James it's a foul.

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    SoFL_DawgSoFL_Dawg Posts: 11,084 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    Nice post but Kobe at #10???

    Shaq is the most dominant player of all time making him the most valuable on those early 2000 Lakers squads but Kobe was the glue.

    Best defender, the playmaker, scorer. Only way I see Kobe at 10 is if you pick a starting five, Kobe doesn’t start at his position all time. I think Kobe is better than Magic and Duncan on all time starting 5 though.

    GOAT starting 5: Magic, MJ, Lebron, Duncan, Kareem

    Next up: Isiah T., Kobe, Durant/Bird (too close to call now), K. Malone, Shaq/Wilt

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    SoFL_DawgSoFL_Dawg Posts: 11,084 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    I know he was a gambler but that’s crazy if that’s what happened.

    I thought it was just a car jacking, wrong place, wrong time, nice car. If it is true, NBA kept that under wraps well. Seems like a 30 for 30 waiting to happen.

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    pgjacksonpgjackson Posts: 17,856 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    Good stuff. It was an amazing cast of characters MJ played against. Can't say that about Lebron.

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    SoFL_DawgSoFL_Dawg Posts: 11,084 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    Easiest debate imo to separate the two. Count the number of HOFs MJ kept from getting rings:

    1. Malone-2nd best PF imo
    2. Ewing-top 10 big man of all time
    3. Barkley-top 7 PF of all time
    4. Reggie Miller-top 7 SG of all time
    5. Stockton-arguably best passer/assist man
    6. Would Hakeem (4th big man) have a ring without the break 94-95?

    Lebron is a monster but he just isn’t MJ

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    Dawgy_FreshDawgy_Fresh Posts: 895 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    mood and tone- this a fun subjective conversation, I know this is not a popular opinion but I enjoy the conversation 😀

    We all grieve differently but why isn’t IT sister dying comparable MJs dad? Man, I have lost a sibling and a parent and I’ll tell you what both are the worst. The hurt compares quite the same to me but that’s me. People grieve differently for IT he played immediately, if Jordan’s dad death is the reason for the retirement then he took off 1.5 yrs to grieve. That’s fine but again it’s this idea if you criticize the GOAT then everyone comes out of the wood works to rally why MJ is not to be touched.

    I think Grant Hill could have overtaken Pippen before he got hurt but take a look at their numbers: they’re almost identical but Scottie is arguably the best defensive player ever and Scottie’s numbers are the same even being the 2nd option. Hill was considered the #1 on those teams- Dumar was getting old and Stackhouse I think tried to be the number 1 but there is a reason he was traded. I think you are overlooking how good Scottie was defensively while contributing almost identically offensively.

    Grant Hill


    I am aware Rodman was on the bulls for 3 yrs, his stats above where answering a question from Kasey about Rodman not being in his prime on the bulls team. The graphic was showing how his prime overlapped his time on the bulls.

    Yes MJ did beat a lot of HOF, the point of me going through each team he beat in the finals was to show that the bulls were suppose to win. His teams were more talented. To his credit he did win, that doesn’t always happen, we can rewind to the Warriors losing the Raptors (I know team was depleted), Mavs beating the Heat, and the Pistons beating the Lakers in 04. He did stop a ton of teams from getting rings, he had a better team.

    If you go and look at every finals winner you see that every team had at least 2 HOFs in there primes besides 2 teams (Mavs and 04 Pistons). I stopped checking once I hit 1980. I have never looked at the losing team and how many HOF in prime they had- you have given me hw.

    Most competitive teams in the 90s had 1 HOF in prime and if you were luck you had 2. The bulls had again not just 2 or 3 HOFs they had 2 best at their respective positions. The only teams that had anything close were the Jazz- arguably the best pg in the 90s and the best PF in the 90s (arguably ever - I’d put Tim there KM 2nd) and the Rockets the Dream was the best C in the game at the time and grossly underrated and Clyde who’s a HOF and probably #3 at position in 90s (MJ, Reggie, then Clyde)

    I don’t think East was as good as you remember, the defense in the 90s is incredibly over rated. Players leaned on physical play more than actually playing team defense. The Pacers had 1 HOF, the Heat had 1 HOF, the knicks 1 HOF, Magic 1 HOF (penny was great though). The bulls were so much more talented to the rest of the league, it was a cheat code basically the KD warriors teams.

    love the conversation - we prolly aren’t going to change each other’s mind but I enjoy it.

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    pgjacksonpgjackson Posts: 17,856 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate
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    SoFL_DawgSoFL_Dawg Posts: 11,084 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    Grant is a nice call but those knees were trash. Still are till this day. Was at a fundraising event in Miami and got a chance to meet him. His knees are almost as bad as Kenny “the Jet“ Smith.

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    SoFL_DawgSoFL_Dawg Posts: 11,084 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    MJ didn’t catch them in their prime though, similar to the 91 ring vs. Magic. That would’ve been a challenge and fun to watch. I’d like to see Pippin and Bird go at it.

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    KaseyKasey Posts: 28,916 mod

    i'm fine..it's all barstool talk. I just completely disagree with you haha...

    I think peak Rodman was Pistons Rodman. That first year on the Bulls was really good, but he ruined those Spurs teams and seemed to only care about getting rebounds and not much else. I noticed you didn't have his point average on there. Probably because he often kicked out after a board when he probably could lay it up.

    Getting Madonna and Carmen Electra? Priiiiiiiiiiiiiiiime Rodaman

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    SoFL_DawgSoFL_Dawg Posts: 11,084 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    If Lebron could’ve beat the Celtics without going to Miami, maybe the convo is different. Can’t tell me you can win 60+ games in regular season and in same breath say he didn’t play with anyone when playoffs start.

    The beat downs Pierce and Garnett gave him, the finals loss to Mavs (which Lebron folded down the stretch), being passive and hiding behind the right basketball play in clutch situations, and playing with the 3rd best SG of all time (in his prime) are detractors in my mind. Still second best if all time and we may never see another Lebron, ever.

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