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It's still early.....but it seem like the Patriots past success has more to do with...

texdawgtexdawg Posts: 11,581 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

Brady looks really good on his new team......and the Patriots are struggling without him.

I still think Belichick is an outstanding coach....but Brady is possibly the best QB ever.


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    otis1105otis1105 Posts: 324 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    I think Brady needed to leave and be successful for his legacy. He is on a mission to prove that he was the constant that had NE contending for 20 straight years.

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    TNDawg71TNDawg71 Posts: 2,223 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    I agree that Brady has cemented his legacy. The Patriots have had a lot of people opt out this year.

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    texdawgtexdawg Posts: 11,581 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    Agree about the talent differences.

    But Pats have had a talent issue the past two seasons.

    I still believe Belichick is great......and had a significant impact on the past 20 years.

    Just think what Brady is doing......especially at his age......is incredible.

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    otis1105otis1105 Posts: 324 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    Brady has always been at a talent deficit on offense. I always thought Peyton’s numbers were always a bit inflated because he had Reggie Wayne and another receiver I’m blanking on right now for most of his career! Then he moved to a team with Thomas, welker, sanders. He also made people better so I’m not diminishing him, but it seems the pats have always felt good with Brady having lesser talent on the outside and then spending money on D and gronk as a matchup nightmare when healthy. Always worked so obviously no complaints from their fans

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    BigDawgBrinkBigDawgBrink Posts: 393 ✭✭✭✭ Senior

    Brady is playing great don't get me wrong, but he has greater arsenal of weapons now than he has ever had in New England. Chris Godwin gets separation on pretty much every play, Evans is one of the best 50/50 guys in the NFL, and Gronk obviously still has it. That's just the main guys. Fournette and Jones looking good and the line is giving him time. I won't forget to mention that their defense is giving him a ton of time of possession. they are playing phenomenal. All that being said, His arm still looks great right now. He's still able to fire it in there and drop it in the bucket.

    New England is dealing with a ton of issues, Lot of Opt outs, Lot of covid, Lot of injuries on the O-line. Cam Hasn't looked the same since having covid. Tom is obviously one of the greatest Qbs ever, but two weeks ago he forgot it was 4th down. lol What I am getting at is I am going to give Bill Belicheck the benefit of the doubt here. He's done a lot of winning without Tom

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    orlandoorlando Posts: 2,322 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    Brady is still the man, keep him upright with those weapons at his disposal and he is lights out. Cam meh.... mediocre qb on an mediocre team right now. Bill is a great coach but Cam can’t tie Toms shoes.

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    texdawgtexdawg Posts: 11,581 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    Come on.....I don't think Cam is a great QB.....but I think it's ridiculous to suggest that Cam can't tie shoes.

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    GrayDawgGrayDawg Posts: 1,907 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    I don’t like Brady because he likes Trump. /s

    TBH, I haven't paid either team any attention this season but I find the question intriguing. Strange time for Brady to go it alone being so late in his career. If he wins the SB I don’t know how anyone could argue his goat status. This coming from a 49er fan who grew up watching Joe Montana.

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    Jhorne2000Jhorne2000 Posts: 174 ✭✭✭ Junior

    Kidding right ? Brady proved year after year it didn’t matter who he was throwing to.

    Cam may be 5-2 as a Buc, but Brady would be 5-2 as a Patriot

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    KaseyKasey Posts: 29,057 mod

    That was the narrative pre-2007. Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Aaron Hernandez, Rob Gronkowski, Julian Edelman were all pretty good.

    Is there anyone as good as 2014-16 Edelman? How about Gronk?

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    mantis_toboggan69mantis_toboggan69 Posts: 264 ✭✭✭✭ Senior

    Unless one of Brady or Belichick finish their career SIGNIFICANTLY better than the other, this will turn into a MJ/Lebron type of debate.

    The way I look at it, Belichick is addicted to football and winning and has taught himself how to win in the National Football League better than any other coach in history. I think so much of Brady’s mindset and how he perceives the game and goes about his business was learned from Belichick. That’s not to knock Brady. He’s immensely talented and did all the right things. I do think he’s the greatest QB ever, but I’ll side ever so shortly with Bill on this debate unless Brady is able to 100% that he was the most important piece of the equation.

    In addition to the much better supporting cast of weapons in Tampa, the much better defense, COVID opt-outs, etc., here’s some more thing I think are worth mentioning in support of Belichick.

    -He won 37 games over 5 seasons in Cleveland

    -He was HC for Cleveland’s last playoff victory

    -They won 3 games the year prior to his arrival and 2 games after he left.

    -He started his coaching career in ‘75. He was named giants DC in ‘85 after 6 years with the team He won SuperBowls as DC in ‘86 and ‘90. His defense was responsible for those wins and for giving Elway and Kelly fits

    -In 2008, Brady was injured early in the opener, but Belichick was still able to lead his team to an 11-5 record.

    I 100% believe Brady is the GOAT QB and he’s definitely had some great statistical performances in the Super Bowl, but he’s also been okay to average to flat out bad in others. He’s been in 9 Super Bowls and I’ve watched them all, yet I struggle to think of a single moment or play where Tom truly wowed me and I thought “I’m watching greatest of all time” (I’m sure at least one notable play is slipping my mind, but the point still stands. When I think of his SuperBowls, I think of the Giants’ pass rush, David Tyree, Dant’a Hightower’s sack & fumble, Malcolm Butler’s INT, Chase Blackburn’s INT, Janet Jackson’s ****, and Nick Foles greatness. Sure, 28-3 was an all-time comeback and Brady was great at the helm, but it was a team effort (again, no single play from Brady stands out) and the narrative was that the Falcons’ had an epic collapse and not that Brady was a savior.

    In my opinion, Belichick still has multiple Super Bowls even if he never found Brady, while Brady would be more likely to have 0 than 2 or more without Belichick. And lastly I don’t think it’s fair to think this debate is anywhere close to over 7 games after their separation when Bill’s relying on a QB he signed 2 months before the season to lead a roster with a lot of holes in it that are largely a result of COVID. When you consider their remaining schedules, respected divisions, and Bill Belichick’s ability to improve his squad as the season progresses, I don’t think Bill Belichick should be counted out.

    The following is just some quick analysis of each SB I jotted down when looking into all of this.

    Super Bowl Wins:

    XXXVI: Patriots 20 - Rams 17

    -Pats D held the greatest NFL offense ever at that point in time to 17 points and Forced 3 turnovers

    -Brady finished with 145 yards and a touchdown. He was only sacked twice and the Pats averaged 5.3 yards per carry, while only converting 2 of 11 3rd downs.

    XXXVII: Patriots 32 - Panthers 29

    -Brady finished with a solid game overall going for 352 yards, 3 TDs, and an INT. He struggles much of the first 3 quarters, but lit it up in the 4th when it matters, so credit to him for that.

    XXXIX: Patriots 24 - Eagles 21

    -Brady had 236 yards, 2 TD, and 1 fumble.

    -Stats are alright, but Brady did not play anything better than average

    -Pats D forced 4 turnovers and was the reason they won that game

    XLIX: Patriots 28 - Seahawks 24

    -Brady had 356 yards, 4 touchdowns, 2 ints, but their defense is the main reason they reached the SB and won it

    LI: Pats 34 - Falcons 28

    -Brady had 466 yards, 2 TDs, and 1 INT

    -Obviously an all time great game and comeback. Props to him.

    LII: Pats 13 - Rams 3

    -262 yards, 0 TDs, 1 INT

    -Defense won them this game

    SuperBowL losses:

    XLII: Giants 17 - Pats 14

    • defense

    XLVI: Giants 21 - Pats 17

    • defense

    LII: Eagles 41 - Pats 33

    • Brady played well but Nick Foles out-dueled him especially in crunch time.

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    WtkWtk Posts: 614 ✭✭✭✭ Senior
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    KaseyKasey Posts: 29,057 mod

    not the argument.

    Tom is the GOAT and it is undisputed. Just saying for this year, 2020, switch Cam and Tom and I bet the records are similar.

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    ThelordjohnsonThelordjohnson Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    Naw CoVid related and sit outs have hurt Bill.

    Even if Brady wins without Bill its bot because Arians is a great coach they literally have the offensive depth of a college football team with three #1 WRs and three #1 TEs anywhere else. Not to mention three #1 RBs. And a defense that is stacked as well.

    Bill is doing decent and bad at the same time. But didnt they have tbe most opt outs of starters at 5, add in regular injuries, Cam and Gil CoVid, etc. Been bad breaks for him all around.

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    BrotatoChip88BrotatoChip88 Posts: 219 ✭✭✭✭ Senior

    So, one can deduce that an elite QB is important . . . . where have I seen this before . . . . 🤔

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