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The Hawks probably made a mistake in not taking Luca Doncic...

WCDawg

He's starting to show he can be truly special. He's dropping the baby fat which is making him far quicker, he has everything else you'd ask for in a modern 2/3/4 hybrid. Last night he showed it all.
Not only might The Hawks be sorry in not taking him, I think if the draft were held today he'd be everybody's pick at #1.

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RandomFan

It's also not like a players entire career is defined by how well his rookie season unfolds. Did anyone think Steph Curry was going to turn into the Steph of today during his rookie season? No.

It's not like we don't know this lesson from NFL football. You don't judge a draft until 4 or 5 seasons down the line.

judasdurant

@WCDawg said:

@judasdurant said:
I mean it’s not like there was any way for the hawks to know Luka would be amazing besides the entire season of him dominating the second best basketball league in the world at 18. Who would’ve thought!!!

His athleticism was a legitimate question. He dropped the baby fat and it's made him quicker and more explosive to the basket. The European leagues are very good, but success there doesn't always translate to The NBA.

Trae Young was the first player to lead CBB in both scoring and assist, and he did it as a true freshman in a top conference.

I mean i felt from day 1, and I’m pretty sure I’ve said it on this board, that Luka was the unquestionable best player in this draft. Hawks aren’t the only team that messed up. Trae May end up being a solid player. But no one in this draft class will compare to luka and the hawks trading away his draft rights will end up as one of Those all time moves that teams regret (i. E.) sam Bowie over MJ, oden over durant)

unknown

This content has been removed.

WCDawg

@judasdurant said:

@WCDawg said:

@judasdurant said:
I mean it’s not like there was any way for the hawks to know Luka would be amazing besides the entire season of him dominating the second best basketball league in the world at 18. Who would’ve thought!!!

His athleticism was a legitimate question. He dropped the baby fat and it's made him quicker and more explosive to the basket. The European leagues are very good, but success there doesn't always translate to The NBA.

Trae Young was the first player to lead CBB in both scoring and assist, and he did it as a true freshman in a top conference.

I mean i felt from day 1, and I’m pretty sure I’ve said it on this board, that Luka was the unquestionable best player in this draft. Hawks aren’t the only team that messed up. Trae May end up being a solid player. But no one in this draft class will compare to luka and the hawks trading away his draft rights will end up as one of Those all time moves that teams regret (i. E.) sam Bowie over MJ, oden over durant)

Somebody has to guess right, it doesn't make it preordained by any stretch.
I'm not saying you didn't use judgement, but like everybody, sometimes you're right, sometimes you're not.
I thought Ayton was the best player, but that the league is no longer a low post dominated league, which somewhat diminishes his value.

I would have traded down and taken Jaren Jackson, he still might end up being the most valuable player in the draft. He doesn't have nearly Doncic's experience, but his skill set, athleticism and length are rare. He is already 19th overall in advanced defensive rating in the league, that includes all positions. Doncic is 82nd. So while I'd go with Doncic 1st as of now, Jackson has tremendous upside too.

WCDawg

@rednavel said:

@judasdurant said:

@WCDawg said:

@judasdurant said:
I mean it’s not like there was any way for the hawks to know Luka would be amazing besides the entire season of him dominating the second best basketball league in the world at 18. Who would’ve thought!!!

His athleticism was a legitimate question. He dropped the baby fat and it's made him quicker and more explosive to the basket. The European leagues are very good, but success there doesn't always translate to The NBA.

Trae Young was the first player to lead CBB in both scoring and assist, and he did it as a true freshman in a top conference.

I mean i felt from day 1, and I’m pretty sure I’ve said it on this board, that Luka was the unquestionable best player in this draft. Hawks aren’t the only team that messed up. Trae May end up being a solid player. But no one in this draft class will compare to luka and the hawks trading away his draft rights will end up as one of Those all time moves that teams regret (i. E.) sam Bowie over MJ, oden over durant)

Trae has all the ball skills and shooting ability to be a very good player when surrounded by other good players, but I’m not sure he will ever be the best or even second best player on a championship team. Only a handful of guys in the league achieve that, but Doncic could become the second banana to a true superstar if he doesn’t achieve that himself someday. Trae will always have defensive limitations just by being small, some of which can be mediated by coaching and discipline. I just worry that Doncic will always be a better player, throughout their respective careers.

I don't doubt Doncic will have more value, but the deal included Dallas's #1 pick in the 2019 draft and I believe their #2 pick in 2020. If we get a player as good as John Collins who we took at #21 in 2017, the deal might be pretty good.

unknown

This content has been removed.

TMazz2009

It is hard to rate stars across generational lines. But that said, you guys should do a little homework.

Haralabos Voulgaris is a name any one should know that is forming opinions on the status of a basketball player or if you have ever wagered money on an NBA game. He created an analytical system to rank the dominance of any NBA athlete based on points per possession to help compare their importance to the team. He also is the mind behind the corner 3 offense...something he publicly argued with Phil Jackson over. Of course now, his work is pure genius and he was even hired to an NBA front office.

The last I saw the ranking was about 18 months ago. Do you guys know who attributed to the most points per possession in which he touched the ball?.....Shaquille O'Neal. One could argue well the stats are skewed considering he did not touch the ball every possession with him being a big man. Ok ok I could get that stats can always be skewed...so who was #2 you ask? The one and only MJ....which is impressive since he touched the ball nearly every possession. As for LeBron he barely cracked the top 10. It is just one barometer so take ifwiw.

But this was the most interesting statistical breakdown I have ever seen that suggests MJ was the GOAT. Break down the statistical output of MJ's and Lebron's team mates with and without them. This tells a drastic story. Players that played with MJ posted their average or better in almost every statistical category than they did when they played without him. Players that plays or has played with Lebron have the exact opposite result. Only a couple players have held their average over the years playing with Lebron. The vast majority of them had better output without Lebron. So MJ made players around him better while Lebron well not so much. And think of it like this....Pippen, Grant, BJ, Bill Cartwright, Paxon, Kerr, Kukoc, Wennington, Longley, etc had better or immensely better output during their years with MJ than the years without. Not the same for Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, Korver, etc.

Lebron is behind MJ is many categories including points and barely ahead of MJ in other including blocks, but has played some 200 games more than MJ did over the course of his career and that includes his old man years with the Wizards while Lebron has only played in his prime. This was also done with ancient offenses because coaches back when MJ played were idiots. MJ would without a doubt be even more efficient in a modern day offense compared to the inefficient ones of yesteryear. And to use Kirby's phrase, the physicality of the game now compared to the MJ era is a joke. Lebron is the biggest crybaby I have ever seen. He would not know what to do back in the late 80s and 90s....lol

This is just food for thought. We all will have our opinions but thought a little statistical analysis would make for a good read for those who care.

TMazz2009

@rednavel said:

@WCDawg said:

@rednavel said:

@judasdurant said:

@WCDawg said:

@judasdurant said:
I mean it’s not like there was any way for the hawks to know Luka would be amazing besides the entire season of him dominating the second best basketball league in the world at 18. Who would’ve thought!!!

His athleticism was a legitimate question. He dropped the baby fat and it's made him quicker and more explosive to the basket. The European leagues are very good, but success there doesn't always translate to The NBA.

Trae Young was the first player to lead CBB in both scoring and assist, and he did it as a true freshman in a top conference.

I mean i felt from day 1, and I’m pretty sure I’ve said it on this board, that Luka was the unquestionable best player in this draft. Hawks aren’t the only team that messed up. Trae May end up being a solid player. But no one in this draft class will compare to luka and the hawks trading away his draft rights will end up as one of Those all time moves that teams regret (i. E.) sam Bowie over MJ, oden over durant)

Trae has all the ball skills and shooting ability to be a very good player when surrounded by other good players, but I’m not sure he will ever be the best or even second best player on a championship team. Only a handful of guys in the league achieve that, but Doncic could become the second banana to a true superstar if he doesn’t achieve that himself someday. Trae will always have defensive limitations just by being small, some of which can be mediated by coaching and discipline. I just worry that Doncic will always be a better player, throughout their respective careers.

I don't doubt Doncic will have more value, but the deal included Dallas's #1 pick in the 2019 draft and I believe their #2 pick in 2020. If we get a player as good as John Collins who we took at #21 in 2017, the deal might be pretty good.

I believe the deal was Dallas’ 2019 pick if it falls outside the top 5, otherwise we could get two second rounders in 2020. Could be wrong though. Right now based on their record Dallas should be around the 8th pick in the lottery. I’ll personally feel much better if we can finish with a top 5 and a top 10 pick in 2019. Makes the Doncic trade easier to swallow for me.

My thoughts exactly....Doncic is the best rookie in a while and looks to be getting better. Trae Young does not have the upside of ever reaching that level. But if we can grab Zion or Barrett and then snag a talent at 8 or 9 with the Mavs pick, then we may be a better team overall due to the trade. I would love Zion, Reddish combo with those picks....not sure Reddish will fall to 8 but we all can dream.

MeR3htid

Noone would have to guard MJ because again, and pay close attention this time. Michael Jordan would b rendered wholey unplayable against this lineup due to his relatively tiny stature as compared to the lineup I referenced headlined by the true G.O.A.T LeBron. Again I ask, against this lineup where do u hide Jordan defensively. U simply cannot. Therefore if Im the coach Jordan is sitting next to me because he would b seriously overmatched out there. Now a prime Larry Bird, sure he could matchup out there no problem. Prime Magic Johnson? Ditto. Scottie Pippen? Yep. Dominique Wilkins? Absolutely. Michael Jordan? NO!!! ABSOLUTELY NOT, HE'S TOO LITTLE TO GUARD ANYONE AND DOESNT HAVE THE 3 POINT RANGE TO STRETCH THE FLOOR!!! SO FOR THE LAST TIME NOOOOOOO!!!!!! HE IS NOT THE G.O.A.T.

mantis_toboggan69

@TMazz2009 said:
It is hard to rate stars across generational lines. But that said, you guys should do a little homework.

Haralabos Voulgaris is a name any one should know that is forming opinions on the status of a basketball player or if you have ever wagered money on an NBA game. He created an analytical system to rank the dominance of any NBA athlete based on points per possession to help compare their importance to the team. He also is the mind behind the corner 3 offense...something he publicly argued with Phil Jackson over. Of course now, his work is pure genius and he was even hired to an NBA front office.

The last I saw the ranking was about 18 months ago. Do you guys know who attributed to the most points per possession in which he touched the ball?.....Shaquille O'Neal. One could argue well the stats are skewed considering he did not touch the ball every possession with him being a big man. Ok ok I could get that stats can always be skewed...so who was #2 you ask? The one and only MJ....which is impressive since he touched the ball nearly every possession. As for LeBron he barely cracked the top 10. It is just one barometer so take ifwiw.

But this was the most interesting statistical breakdown I have ever seen that suggests MJ was the GOAT. Break down the statistical output of MJ's and Lebron's team mates with and without them. This tells a drastic story. Players that played with MJ posted their average or better in almost every statistical category than they did when they played without him. Players that plays or has played with Lebron have the exact opposite result. Only a couple players have held their average over the years playing with Lebron. The vast majority of them had better output without Lebron. So MJ made players around him better while Lebron well not so much. And think of it like this....Pippen, Grant, BJ, Bill Cartwright, Paxon, Kerr, Kukoc, Wennington, Longley, etc had better or immensely better output during their years with MJ than the years without. Not the same for Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, Korver, etc.

Lebron is behind MJ is many categories including points and barely ahead of MJ in other including blocks, but has played some 200 games more than MJ did over the course of his career and that includes his old man years with the Wizards while Lebron has only played in his prime. This was also done with ancient offenses because coaches back when MJ played were idiots. MJ would without a doubt be even more efficient in a modern day offense compared to the inefficient ones of yesteryear. And to use Kirby's phrase, the physicality of the game now compared to the MJ era is a joke. Lebron is the biggest crybaby I have ever seen. He would not know what to do back in the late 80s and 90s....lol

This is just food for thought. We all will have our opinions but thought a little statistical analysis would make for a good read for those who care.

Voulgaris didn’t invent PPP. It’s one of many advanced stats. All advanced stats are flawed and favor certain types of players. If they’re looked at holistically, MJ and Lebron are well ahead of anyone else in history and I don’t think it’s fair to say either clearly leads the other. Jordan leads in WS/48, PER, ORB%, STL%, TOV%. Lebron leads in TS%, AST% and TRB%. He also has a higher usage rate. All of the differences in these stats are marginal between the two players. All of these stats favor certain types of players. The ones that Jordan leads tend to favor the type of player that Jordan was and likewise with The ones favoring Lebron.

If you look at it on a season by season basis over 15 years, all of the aforementioned stats favor MJ slightly over about the first 1/2, while they favor Lebron slightly over the last 1/2. There’s a lot of variables here with MJ playing college being the main one. He was more prepared for the NBA coming in, but Lebron benefits from spending more time learning in the NBA and has more years in his athletic prime. If Lebron maintains his last 7-8 years of production, it’s likely he’ll overtake MJ in some of the advanced metrics he currently leads (though the difference will again be incredible small).

The same could be pretty much copied and pasted if you were to look at playoff production. One thing i’ll add is that most team metrics favor MJ’s Bulls in 5 or 6 of his final appearances, while Lebron’s teams were most often favored in only 2, which is why I don’t personally find it fair to hold his finals record against him.

I also should mention that the “MJ makes players better and Lebron doesn’t” narrative is entirely false and can’t be conveyed accurately with advanced metrics. You’d have to look at it on an individual basis and a large part of it has to do with team fit, style of play, and usage. For example, Korver’s Stats may have declined in Cleveland, but he was older, used much differently, and using him as he was used in Atlanta would’ve made the Cavs worse overall. This so where you can really nitpick stats. For example, all 9 players who were on both the ‘93 and ‘94 Bulls saw their shooting percentages increase after MJ retired. Lebron and MJ both make the players around them better moreso than any other player ever.

I’m of the belief and advanced statistics support that post-Mavs series Lebron is the most dominant stretch of basketball ever played. MJ is ahead slightly right now, but Lebron is still in his statistical prime and will likely overtake him if he keeps it up for 2-4 more years.

ChicagoDawg

@Kasey said:
🤔 I wonder who said that way back when during draft time...someone on this board...anyone know?

Yeah, I know. First time I went back and forth with that person trying to tell him why the Hawks should take Doncic. Don't bother with that poster any more.

WCDawg

@rednavel said:

@WCDawg said:

@rednavel said:

@judasdurant said:

@WCDawg said:

@judasdurant said:
I mean it’s not like there was any way for the hawks to know Luka would be amazing besides the entire season of him dominating the second best basketball league in the world at 18. Who would’ve thought!!!

His athleticism was a legitimate question. He dropped the baby fat and it's made him quicker and more explosive to the basket. The European leagues are very good, but success there doesn't always translate to The NBA.

Trae Young was the first player to lead CBB in both scoring and assist, and he did it as a true freshman in a top conference.

I mean i felt from day 1, and I’m pretty sure I’ve said it on this board, that Luka was the unquestionable best player in this draft. Hawks aren’t the only team that messed up. Trae May end up being a solid player. But no one in this draft class will compare to luka and the hawks trading away his draft rights will end up as one of Those all time moves that teams regret (i. E.) sam Bowie over MJ, oden over durant)

Trae has all the ball skills and shooting ability to be a very good player when surrounded by other good players, but I’m not sure he will ever be the best or even second best player on a championship team. Only a handful of guys in the league achieve that, but Doncic could become the second banana to a true superstar if he doesn’t achieve that himself someday. Trae will always have defensive limitations just by being small, some of which can be mediated by coaching and discipline. I just worry that Doncic will always be a better player, throughout their respective careers.

I don't doubt Doncic will have more value, but the deal included Dallas's #1 pick in the 2019 draft and I believe their #2 pick in 2020. If we get a player as good as John Collins who we took at #21 in 2017, the deal might be pretty good.

I believe the deal was Dallas’ 2019 pick if it falls outside the top 5, otherwise we could get two second rounders in 2020. Could be wrong though. Right now based on their record Dallas should be around the 8th pick in the lottery. I’ll personally feel much better if we can finish with a top 5 and a top 10 pick in 2019. Makes the Doncic trade easier to swallow for me.

You are correct, but at this time it seems almost certain The Mavs pick will be outside the top 5. Right now Dallas has the 12th worst winning percentage.
My guess is from low lottery to around 15th.

PTDawg

@judasdurant said:

@WCDawg said:

@judasdurant said:
I mean it’s not like there was any way for the hawks to know Luka would be amazing besides the entire season of him dominating the second best basketball league in the world at 18. Who would’ve thought!!!

His athleticism was a legitimate question. He dropped the baby fat and it's made him quicker and more explosive to the basket. The European leagues are very good, but success there doesn't always translate to The NBA.

Trae Young was the first player to lead CBB in both scoring and assist, and he did it as a true freshman in a top conference.

I mean i felt from day 1, and I’m pretty sure I’ve said it on this board, that Luka was the unquestionable best player in this draft. Hawks aren’t the only team that messed up. Trae May end up being a solid player. But no one in this draft class will compare to luka and the hawks trading away his draft rights will end up as one of Those all time moves that teams regret (i. E.) sam Bowie over MJ, oden over durant)

Call me crazy but I don't think anyone will ever mention the Hawks taking Young and the pick over Doncic in the same breath as Bowie over Jordan historically. Except for me just now, of course.

orlando

Yes they did, par for the course

MeR3htid

The Hawks r never gonna get it right people. Just not meant to b. Anyway, GO DAWGS!!!