Very Interesting Article And A Great Chance To Argue

WCDawg

@texdawg said:

@donm said:
Just read this article in the AJC and found it fascinating. It deals with pitching in baseball and what advanced analytics has wrought with the way pitchers are used. Some very interesting stats, especially with Greg Maddux. I thought it might give us something other than politics to argue about - at least for a short while. Some cool Maddux quotes and Leo Mazzone quotes, too.

https://epaper.ajc.com/html5/reader/production/default.aspx?pubname=&edid=99bc7be3-1e19-4455-84b4-d24c09f2c2a3

Thanks for posting article. Unfortunately I wasn't able to open it because I need to subscribe to the AJC.

I have a 6'5" fourteen year old who is a very good pitcher. There is so much conflicting information out there about the best way to develop young pitchers that it's difficult to know what is right.

How often they should throw, how long should they be shut down or should they even be shut down, and when they should start throwing breaking balls and how often.

We have decided to be very conservative with my son and we shut him down for long periods of time and limit how many breaking pitches he throws - and he didn't learn the breaking pitch until he was 13. Don't know if that is the right way or not. But I'm confident that over using a 14 year old boy to help win major or AAA tournaments isn't in their best interest.

I don't know the right answer but I do know there are a whole lot more arm injuries now than there used to be.

I've stayed out of advising on pitching because I have an inherently impinged rotator cuff, I never could throw over a few pitches without having my arm go rubbery.
That said, use the guidelines, no more than 75 pitches any day, no more than 118 a week ( I could be off a bit on this one) and 1000 pitches in a season. Don't throw curves or sliders, work to stay loose and strong, work on mechanics and the change up.

LakeDawg

Well said @AnotherDawg... I played baseball through college and now I'm on the coach/dad side of things. In college I saw kids come in that were just burned out on the game, good players but just had lost the love for the game. I never really understood b/c I played basketball and football also in high school and never got involved in the travel ball world outside of rec and all-star teams.

Now I look around and see why... kids are playing 50+ games a year at 7 years old. My youngest son is 7 and a pretty good athlete, we have been asked by different travel ball teams to play with them. When I ask about how much they play the response has been "their young so we only travel once a month to tournaments and practice 2-3 days a week most weeks". I might understand it when their 10-12ish and up but 7 years old is rediculous in my book.

I don't mean to ruffle any feathers if your kid is on a travel ball team. As Anotherdawg said communication, stretching, and rest is most important. But let a kid be a kid!

Just my 2¢

WCDawg

@LakeDawg said:
Well said @AnotherDawg... I played baseball through college and now I'm on the coach/dad side of things. In college I saw kids come in that were just burned out on the game, good players but just had lost the love for the game. I never really understood b/c I played basketball and football also in high school and never got involved in the travel ball world outside of rec and all-star teams.

Now I look around and see why... kids are playing 50+ games a year at 7 years old. My youngest son is 7 and a pretty good athlete, we have been asked by different travel ball teams to play with them. When I ask about how much they play the response has been "their young so we only travel once a month to tournaments and practice 2-3 days a week most weeks". I might understand it when their 10-12ish and up but 7 years old is rediculous in my book.

I don't mean to ruffle any feathers if your kid is on a travel ball team. As Anotherdawg said communication, stretching, and rest is most important. But let a kid be a kid!

Just my 2¢

His advice goes against the guidelines compiled orthopedic surgeons and other experts though, that seems risky to me. At 14 years old a 75 pitch limit is recommended. Managers don't even let major league rookies go 100 pitches very often.

SaltDawg1515

Travel ball has gotten way out of control. It's all on the parents, because everyone thinks their little Johnny will be the next MLB HOF, or Atlanta United All Star. I say this as a HS Football coach, who has had many conversations with kids playing travel baseball and soccer and are too "busy" to actually play on their school's basketball and football teams. The rush to specialization and playing only one sport isnt good, nor is the most healthy approach to these developing young men and women. They arent old enough to make the correct decision, but the parents are and fail miserably. All so they can brag around the water cooler at work.

LakeDawg

@WCDawg I don't mean to start an argument with you and I am no orthopedic surgeon but I took his post to mean 100 pitches could be thrown with adequate recovery time with no long term damage (and I don't think he insinuated that would be incouraged) but never over 3 games in a day and half. The 3 games over a day and half is the point. If I read it correctly!😄

Leo was coaching grown adults, kids need rest.

My post was a small soap box rant on travel ball for 7 year olds, how did I get into a pitch count discussion?

Just my 2¢

donm

@AnotherDawg said:
Good thread Don. I am an AJC subscriber but could not find the article via the link. Still, I understand the topic, and I appreciate the posts from @Acrum21 and @texdawg. I'm a former baseball prospect, pitcher, and UCL survivor, as well as a former baseball dad, and now, a travel baseball coach.

In my experience, Smoltz is dead on with his commentary, and I tend to agree with Mazzone as well, though he can take things to an extreme. I could write a book with my own thoughts on this subject, but keeping it short for this thread...

1. Recovery time is THE #1 issue. A teenager can safely throw 100 pitches in a game, as long as he doesn't throw again for 3-4 days. That's how the pros do it. Conversely, the way youth tournaments are run these days, a kid might throw three innings in the morning, three innings in the afternoon, and two innings the next day. He may not hit 100 pitches total, but it's absolutely terrible for his arm.
2. Curveballs are almost a non-issue.
3. Playing other sports is essential. The program I help run encourages kids to play football and basketball, or whatever (wrestling, track, doesn't matter) during other seasons, and take a break from baseball.
4. Long toss is critical. Many programs neglect this, and many parents/kids don't even know what it is.
5. Proper arm care is important. This includes stretching, use of arm bands, icing after pitching, and running (sprints and distance, same day and/or next day, after pitching).

Lastly, communication is important. It can also be tricky. Some kids complain of arm pain at the drop of a hat, and they may need to learn how to pitch through soreness and build arm strength. But in my experience, the best pitchers are usually the opposite. They won't admit arm soreness, and they'll often pitch with it, without anyone knowing. Over time, the soreness turns to pain, and their arm is subjected to undue stress. Next thing you know they're popping Advil, pitching through pain, and putting on a brave face, right up to the point that their ligament pops.

So, whether you're a coach or a dad, check in with the kid, and see how he's doing. When he says "fine," ask again. And keep an eye on him, especially when he doesn't know you're watching. Most important, no matter what level your kid is playing, ENJOY the moment. Making the pros is a one in a million shot. Don't view your kid as a prospect. You won't know when you're watching his final season, or his final game, until it's over.

very sound advice and, not only for baseball.

Acrum21

@AnotherDawg said:>
Lastly, communication is important. It can also be tricky. Some kids complain of arm pain at the drop of a hat, and they may need to learn how to pitch through soreness and build arm strength. But in my experience, the best pitchers are usually the opposite. They won't admit arm soreness, and they'll often pitch with it, without anyone knowing. Over time, the soreness turns to pain, and their arm is subjected to undue stress. Next thing you know they're popping Advil, pitching through pain, and putting on a brave face, right up to the point that their ligament pops.

This x1000. I was a grin a bear it kid, thought paid was for p****s. Best compliment I thought I ever got was that I could roll out of bed and give you 5 innings. I wasn't a burner, very much in the Glavine mold. I would throw 5-6 innings game 1 on Saturday. Game two playing outfield. Maybe I didn't warm up a ton before the game but even if you're trying to throw a kid out 2-3 times at max effort after throwing 75-80 pitches earlier in the day is just awful then same thing on Sunday. I was really big on arm care. Did bands religiously, ran a TON too. Just never got the rest my arm needed doing that weekend after weekend June-July.

WCDawg

@LakeDawg said:
@WCDawg I don't mean to start an argument with you and I am no orthopedic surgeon but I took his post to mean 100 pitches could be thrown with adequate recovery time with no long term damage (and I don't think he insinuated that would be incouraged) but never over 3 games in a day and half. The 3 games over a day and half is the point. If I read it correctly!😄

Leo was coaching grown adults, kids need rest.

My post was a small soap box rant on travel ball for 7 year olds, how did I get into a pitch count discussion?

Just my 2¢

100 pitches is more than rookies in the majors are typically allowed to throw. It seems reckless to advocate throwing over the agreed upon limits. A max of 75 pitches, not an average of 75 is what is recommended.

JayDog

Wow. Something new to argue about is a novel idea. Thank you @donm just keep 'em coming!

Bankwalker

Is this the same article @donm ?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/01/04/sports/baseball/pitching-counts.amp.html

Bankwalker

@WCDawg said:

@LakeDawg said:
@WCDawg I don't mean to start an argument with you and I am no orthopedic surgeon but I took his post to mean 100 pitches could be thrown with adequate recovery time with no long term damage (and I don't think he insinuated that would be incouraged) but never over 3 games in a day and half. The 3 games over a day and half is the point. If I read it correctly!😄

Leo was coaching grown adults, kids need rest.

My post was a small soap box rant on travel ball for 7 year olds, how did I get into a pitch count discussion?

Just my 2¢

100 pitches is more than rookies in the majors are typically allowed to throw. It seems reckless to advocate throwing over the agreed upon limits. A max of 75 pitches, not an average of 75 is what is recommended.

So predictable. I could almost hear the collective smirk when it was posted.

WCDawg

@Bankwalker said:

@WCDawg said:

@LakeDawg said:
@WCDawg I don't mean to start an argument with you and I am no orthopedic surgeon but I took his post to mean 100 pitches could be thrown with adequate recovery time with no long term damage (and I don't think he insinuated that would be incouraged) but never over 3 games in a day and half. The 3 games over a day and half is the point. If I read it correctly!😄

Leo was coaching grown adults, kids need rest.

My post was a small soap box rant on travel ball for 7 year olds, how did I get into a pitch count discussion?

Just my 2¢

100 pitches is more than rookies in the majors are typically allowed to throw. It seems reckless to advocate throwing over the agreed upon limits. A max of 75 pitches, not an average of 75 is what is recommended.

So predictable. I could almost hear the collective smirk when it was posted.

Blah, blah, blah.
Talk about predictable. Hearing voices again ?

donm

@Bankwalker said:
Is this the same article @donm ?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/01/04/sports/baseball/pitching-counts.amp.html

BW, yes!! I wasn't able to locate it again. Thanks. The article talks about micro-managing using stats - like first time through the lineup vs 3 and 4th times through the lineup and how the really good/great pitchers have much better ERA's in the later innings than in the earlier ones - making a case for letting them throw longer in games. Anyways, it gave me food for thought. Hope others enjoy it as well. Love hearing Leo "quotes" and Mad Dog stories.

WCDawg

@donm said:

@Bankwalker said:
Is this the same article @donm ?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/01/04/sports/baseball/pitching-counts.amp.html

BW, yes!! I wasn't able to locate it again. Thanks. The article talks about micro-managing using stats - like first time through the lineup vs 3 and 4th times through the lineup and how the really good/great pitchers have much better ERA's in the later innings than in the earlier ones - making a case for letting them throw longer in games. Anyways, it gave me food for thought. Hope others enjoy it as well. Love hearing Leo "quotes" and Mad Dog stories.

Greg Maddux was in a league of his own when it came to using an at bat to set up the next at bat and even setting a hitter up in the first inning for a pitch he used in the 9th inning.