Home General
Hey folks - as a member of the DawgNation community, please remember to abide by simple rules of civil engagement with other members:

- Please no inappropriate usernames (remember that there may be youngsters in the room)

- Personal attacks on other community members are unacceptable, practice the good manners your mama taught you when engaging with fellow Dawg fans

- Use common sense and respect personal differences in the community: sexual and other inappropriate language or imagery, political rants and belittling the opinions of others will get your posts deleted and result in warnings and/ or banning from the forum

- 3/17/19 UPDATE -- We've updated the permissions for our "Football" and "Commit to the G" recruiting message boards. We aim to be the best free board out there and that has not changed. We do now ask that all of you good people register as a member of our forum in order to see the sugar that is falling from our skies, so to speak.

Very Interesting Article And A Great Chance To Argue

13

Comments

  • texdawgtexdawg Posts: 11,581 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @WCDawg said:

    @texdawg said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Bankwalker said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Bankwalker said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Bankwalker said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @texdawg said:

    @donm said:
    Just read this article in the AJC and found it fascinating. It deals with pitching in baseball and what advanced analytics has wrought with the way pitchers are used. Some very interesting stats, especially with Greg Maddux. I thought it might give us something other than politics to argue about - at least for a short while. Some cool Maddux quotes and Leo Mazzone quotes, too.

    https://epaper.ajc.com/html5/reader/production/default.aspx?pubname=&edid=99bc7be3-1e19-4455-84b4-d24c09f2c2a3

    Thanks for posting article. Unfortunately I wasn't able to open it because I need to subscribe to the AJC.

    I have a 6'5" fourteen year old who is a very good pitcher. There is so much conflicting information out there about the best way to develop young pitchers that it's difficult to know what is right.

    How often they should throw, how long should they be shut down or should they even be shut down, and when they should start throwing breaking balls and how often.

    We have decided to be very conservative with my son and we shut him down for long periods of time and limit how many breaking pitches he throws - and he didn't learn the breaking pitch until he was 13. Don't know if that is the right way or not. But I'm confident that over using a 14 year old boy to help win major or AAA tournaments isn't in their best interest.

    I don't know the right answer but I do know there are a whole lot more arm injuries now than there used to be.

    Just a few years ago the notion that having Tommy John surgery was actually good for a pitcher had gained popularity.
    Now research makes it clear having 1 surgery doubles the chances you'll need a second surgery. I'm with those who limit a young person's innings and use of the most damaging pitches. Tommy John surgery has been around a long time, yet there still isn't a single pitcher who had it in The HOF.

    Wrong, but you will probably still argue otherwise.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/07/08/john-smoltz-hall-of-fame-tommy-john-surgery/29874857/

    Me argue, you're clearly being your usual dic self. I'm guessing whoever wrote the article I read meant players who had TJ early in their careers, or perhaps it was about starting pitchers.

    Or written prior to 2015. Smoltz is the one and only, so the point you were making is still valid - and we now a documented case where you were 100% wrong about something

    On this day in history....

    I'm so sick of your shiit, let's do each other mutual favors and stop conversing.

    Blood in the water, folks.

    There I go again.

    @WCDawg why can't we all just enjoy this forum without all the animosity.

    People disagree with many of your posts because they are typically negative or posted out of anger. But you also occasionally make good points - but it's difficult to answer back to those because of the anger you always seem to have.

    Is there anyway we could all just agree to disagree on many topics without calling people names.

    Can't understand why we can't all just enjoy being dawg fans and learn a lot from everyones different experiences without always disagreeing or questioning someone's knowledge.

    This is my one attempt to try and cool down the rhetoric and move forward more positively. I can get all the negativity from work, TV, politics, etc. Would like to avoid it with my sports and especially my Dawgs.

    There I go, yet again.
    Get my point ?

    I'm just simply asking if we can enjoy posting on here without all the other crap. Nothing I said was derogatory toward you. But yet you DV me.

    I've disagreed with you but I've never called you anything. You've called me a liar and I left it alone. I just don't get it.

    Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that you enjoy posting on the forum. Some of your posts aren't received as well as others. Big deal - people have different opinions - doesn't mean they are wrong or deserve being called names.

    I was just trying to get a reset or start over so everyone could enjoy posting on here - including you. But you obviously wanted none of that.

  • WCDawgWCDawg Posts: 17,293 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate
    edited January 2019

    @texdawg said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @texdawg said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Bankwalker said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Bankwalker said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Bankwalker said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @texdawg said:

    @donm said:
    Just read this article in the AJC and found it fascinating. It deals with pitching in baseball and what advanced analytics has wrought with the way pitchers are used. Some very interesting stats, especially with Greg Maddux. I thought it might give us something other than politics to argue about - at least for a short while. Some cool Maddux quotes and Leo Mazzone quotes, too.

    https://epaper.ajc.com/html5/reader/production/default.aspx?pubname=&edid=99bc7be3-1e19-4455-84b4-d24c09f2c2a3

    Thanks for posting article. Unfortunately I wasn't able to open it because I need to subscribe to the AJC.

    I have a 6'5" fourteen year old who is a very good pitcher. There is so much conflicting information out there about the best way to develop young pitchers that it's difficult to know what is right.

    How often they should throw, how long should they be shut down or should they even be shut down, and when they should start throwing breaking balls and how often.

    We have decided to be very conservative with my son and we shut him down for long periods of time and limit how many breaking pitches he throws - and he didn't learn the breaking pitch until he was 13. Don't know if that is the right way or not. But I'm confident that over using a 14 year old boy to help win major or AAA tournaments isn't in their best interest.

    I don't know the right answer but I do know there are a whole lot more arm injuries now than there used to be.

    Just a few years ago the notion that having Tommy John surgery was actually good for a pitcher had gained popularity.
    Now research makes it clear having 1 surgery doubles the chances you'll need a second surgery. I'm with those who limit a young person's innings and use of the most damaging pitches. Tommy John surgery has been around a long time, yet there still isn't a single pitcher who had it in The HOF.

    Wrong, but you will probably still argue otherwise.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/07/08/john-smoltz-hall-of-fame-tommy-john-surgery/29874857/

    Me argue, you're clearly being your usual dic self. I'm guessing whoever wrote the article I read meant players who had TJ early in their careers, or perhaps it was about starting pitchers.

    Or written prior to 2015. Smoltz is the one and only, so the point you were making is still valid - and we now a documented case where you were 100% wrong about something

    On this day in history....

    I'm so sick of your shiit, let's do each other mutual favors and stop conversing.

    Blood in the water, folks.

    There I go again.

    @WCDawg why can't we all just enjoy this forum without all the animosity.

    People disagree with many of your posts because they are typically negative or posted out of anger. But you also occasionally make good points - but it's difficult to answer back to those because of the anger you always seem to have.

    Is there anyway we could all just agree to disagree on many topics without calling people names.

    Can't understand why we can't all just enjoy being dawg fans and learn a lot from everyones different experiences without always disagreeing or questioning someone's knowledge.

    This is my one attempt to try and cool down the rhetoric and move forward more positively. I can get all the negativity from work, TV, politics, etc. Would like to avoid it with my sports and especially my Dawgs.

    There I go, yet again.
    Get my point ?

    I'm just simply asking if we can enjoy posting on here without all the other crap. Nothing I said was derogatory toward you. But yet you DV me.

    I've disagreed with you but I've never called you anything. You've called me a liar and I left it alone. I just don't get it.

    Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that you enjoy posting on the forum. Some of your posts aren't received as well as others. Big deal - people have different opinions - doesn't mean they are wrong or deserve being called names.

    I was just trying to get a reset or start over so everyone could enjoy posting on here - including you. But you obviously wanted none of that.

    I just can't stop, I seem determined to pick a fight in this thread.

  • BankwalkerBankwalker Posts: 5,348 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @texdawg said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @texdawg said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Bankwalker said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Bankwalker said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Bankwalker said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @texdawg said:

    @donm said:
    Just read this article in the AJC and found it fascinating. It deals with pitching in baseball and what advanced analytics has wrought with the way pitchers are used. Some very interesting stats, especially with Greg Maddux. I thought it might give us something other than politics to argue about - at least for a short while. Some cool Maddux quotes and Leo Mazzone quotes, too.

    https://epaper.ajc.com/html5/reader/production/default.aspx?pubname=&edid=99bc7be3-1e19-4455-84b4-d24c09f2c2a3

    Thanks for posting article. Unfortunately I wasn't able to open it because I need to subscribe to the AJC.

    I have a 6'5" fourteen year old who is a very good pitcher. There is so much conflicting information out there about the best way to develop young pitchers that it's difficult to know what is right.

    How often they should throw, how long should they be shut down or should they even be shut down, and when they should start throwing breaking balls and how often.

    We have decided to be very conservative with my son and we shut him down for long periods of time and limit how many breaking pitches he throws - and he didn't learn the breaking pitch until he was 13. Don't know if that is the right way or not. But I'm confident that over using a 14 year old boy to help win major or AAA tournaments isn't in their best interest.

    I don't know the right answer but I do know there are a whole lot more arm injuries now than there used to be.

    Just a few years ago the notion that having Tommy John surgery was actually good for a pitcher had gained popularity.
    Now research makes it clear having 1 surgery doubles the chances you'll need a second surgery. I'm with those who limit a young person's innings and use of the most damaging pitches. Tommy John surgery has been around a long time, yet there still isn't a single pitcher who had it in The HOF.

    Wrong, but you will probably still argue otherwise.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/07/08/john-smoltz-hall-of-fame-tommy-john-surgery/29874857/

    Me argue, you're clearly being your usual dic self. I'm guessing whoever wrote the article I read meant players who had TJ early in their careers, or perhaps it was about starting pitchers.

    Or written prior to 2015. Smoltz is the one and only, so the point you were making is still valid - and we now a documented case where you were 100% wrong about something

    On this day in history....

    I'm so sick of your shiit, let's do each other mutual favors and stop conversing.

    Blood in the water, folks.

    There I go again.

    @WCDawg why can't we all just enjoy this forum without all the animosity.

    People disagree with many of your posts because they are typically negative or posted out of anger. But you also occasionally make good points - but it's difficult to answer back to those because of the anger you always seem to have.

    Is there anyway we could all just agree to disagree on many topics without calling people names.

    Can't understand why we can't all just enjoy being dawg fans and learn a lot from everyones different experiences without always disagreeing or questioning someone's knowledge.

    This is my one attempt to try and cool down the rhetoric and move forward more positively. I can get all the negativity from work, TV, politics, etc. Would like to avoid it with my sports and especially my Dawgs.

    There I go, yet again.
    Get my point ?

    I'm just simply asking if we can enjoy posting on here without all the other crap. Nothing I said was derogatory toward you. But yet you DV me.

    I've disagreed with you but I've never called you anything. You've called me a liar and I left it alone. I just don't get it.

    Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that you enjoy posting on the forum. Some of your posts aren't received as well as others. Big deal - people have different opinions - doesn't mean they are wrong or deserve being called names.

    I was just trying to get a reset or start over so everyone could enjoy posting on here - including you. But you obviously wanted none of that.

    I would be remiss not to point out that the stated point of this thread was to argue. Perhaps @donm needs to be called to the carpet. :wink:

  • texdawgtexdawg Posts: 11,581 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @WCDawg said:

    @texdawg said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @texdawg said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Bankwalker said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Bankwalker said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Bankwalker said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @texdawg said:

    @donm said:
    Just read this article in the AJC and found it fascinating. It deals with pitching in baseball and what advanced analytics has wrought with the way pitchers are used. Some very interesting stats, especially with Greg Maddux. I thought it might give us something other than politics to argue about - at least for a short while. Some cool Maddux quotes and Leo Mazzone quotes, too.

    https://epaper.ajc.com/html5/reader/production/default.aspx?pubname=&edid=99bc7be3-1e19-4455-84b4-d24c09f2c2a3

    Thanks for posting article. Unfortunately I wasn't able to open it because I need to subscribe to the AJC.

    I have a 6'5" fourteen year old who is a very good pitcher. There is so much conflicting information out there about the best way to develop young pitchers that it's difficult to know what is right.

    How often they should throw, how long should they be shut down or should they even be shut down, and when they should start throwing breaking balls and how often.

    We have decided to be very conservative with my son and we shut him down for long periods of time and limit how many breaking pitches he throws - and he didn't learn the breaking pitch until he was 13. Don't know if that is the right way or not. But I'm confident that over using a 14 year old boy to help win major or AAA tournaments isn't in their best interest.

    I don't know the right answer but I do know there are a whole lot more arm injuries now than there used to be.

    Just a few years ago the notion that having Tommy John surgery was actually good for a pitcher had gained popularity.
    Now research makes it clear having 1 surgery doubles the chances you'll need a second surgery. I'm with those who limit a young person's innings and use of the most damaging pitches. Tommy John surgery has been around a long time, yet there still isn't a single pitcher who had it in The HOF.

    Wrong, but you will probably still argue otherwise.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/07/08/john-smoltz-hall-of-fame-tommy-john-surgery/29874857/

    Me argue, you're clearly being your usual dic self. I'm guessing whoever wrote the article I read meant players who had TJ early in their careers, or perhaps it was about starting pitchers.

    Or written prior to 2015. Smoltz is the one and only, so the point you were making is still valid - and we now a documented case where you were 100% wrong about something

    On this day in history....

    I'm so sick of your shiit, let's do each other mutual favors and stop conversing.

    Blood in the water, folks.

    There I go again.

    @WCDawg why can't we all just enjoy this forum without all the animosity.

    People disagree with many of your posts because they are typically negative or posted out of anger. But you also occasionally make good points - but it's difficult to answer back to those because of the anger you always seem to have.

    Is there anyway we could all just agree to disagree on many topics without calling people names.

    Can't understand why we can't all just enjoy being dawg fans and learn a lot from everyones different experiences without always disagreeing or questioning someone's knowledge.

    This is my one attempt to try and cool down the rhetoric and move forward more positively. I can get all the negativity from work, TV, politics, etc. Would like to avoid it with my sports and especially my Dawgs.

    There I go, yet again.
    Get my point ?

    I'm just simply asking if we can enjoy posting on here without all the other crap. Nothing I said was derogatory toward you. But yet you DV me.

    I've disagreed with you but I've never called you anything. You've called me a liar and I left it alone. I just don't get it.

    Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that you enjoy posting on the forum. Some of your posts aren't received as well as others. Big deal - people have different opinions - doesn't mean they are wrong or deserve being called names.

    I was just trying to get a reset or start over so everyone could enjoy posting on here - including you. But you obviously wanted none of that.

    I just can't stop, I seem determined to pick a fight.

    Well to each his own. I choose to enjoy the forum. Guess I'll just have to avoid your fights

  • WCDawgWCDawg Posts: 17,293 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @texdawg said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @texdawg said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @texdawg said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Bankwalker said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Bankwalker said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Bankwalker said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @texdawg said:

    @donm said:
    Just read this article in the AJC and found it fascinating. It deals with pitching in baseball and what advanced analytics has wrought with the way pitchers are used. Some very interesting stats, especially with Greg Maddux. I thought it might give us something other than politics to argue about - at least for a short while. Some cool Maddux quotes and Leo Mazzone quotes, too.

    https://epaper.ajc.com/html5/reader/production/default.aspx?pubname=&edid=99bc7be3-1e19-4455-84b4-d24c09f2c2a3

    Thanks for posting article. Unfortunately I wasn't able to open it because I need to subscribe to the AJC.

    I have a 6'5" fourteen year old who is a very good pitcher. There is so much conflicting information out there about the best way to develop young pitchers that it's difficult to know what is right.

    How often they should throw, how long should they be shut down or should they even be shut down, and when they should start throwing breaking balls and how often.

    We have decided to be very conservative with my son and we shut him down for long periods of time and limit how many breaking pitches he throws - and he didn't learn the breaking pitch until he was 13. Don't know if that is the right way or not. But I'm confident that over using a 14 year old boy to help win major or AAA tournaments isn't in their best interest.

    I don't know the right answer but I do know there are a whole lot more arm injuries now than there used to be.

    Just a few years ago the notion that having Tommy John surgery was actually good for a pitcher had gained popularity.
    Now research makes it clear having 1 surgery doubles the chances you'll need a second surgery. I'm with those who limit a young person's innings and use of the most damaging pitches. Tommy John surgery has been around a long time, yet there still isn't a single pitcher who had it in The HOF.

    Wrong, but you will probably still argue otherwise.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/07/08/john-smoltz-hall-of-fame-tommy-john-surgery/29874857/

    Me argue, you're clearly being your usual dic self. I'm guessing whoever wrote the article I read meant players who had TJ early in their careers, or perhaps it was about starting pitchers.

    Or written prior to 2015. Smoltz is the one and only, so the point you were making is still valid - and we now a documented case where you were 100% wrong about something

    On this day in history....

    I'm so sick of your shiit, let's do each other mutual favors and stop conversing.

    Blood in the water, folks.

    There I go again.

    @WCDawg why can't we all just enjoy this forum without all the animosity.

    People disagree with many of your posts because they are typically negative or posted out of anger. But you also occasionally make good points - but it's difficult to answer back to those because of the anger you always seem to have.

    Is there anyway we could all just agree to disagree on many topics without calling people names.

    Can't understand why we can't all just enjoy being dawg fans and learn a lot from everyones different experiences without always disagreeing or questioning someone's knowledge.

    This is my one attempt to try and cool down the rhetoric and move forward more positively. I can get all the negativity from work, TV, politics, etc. Would like to avoid it with my sports and especially my Dawgs.

    There I go, yet again.
    Get my point ?

    I'm just simply asking if we can enjoy posting on here without all the other crap. Nothing I said was derogatory toward you. But yet you DV me.

    I've disagreed with you but I've never called you anything. You've called me a liar and I left it alone. I just don't get it.

    Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that you enjoy posting on the forum. Some of your posts aren't received as well as others. Big deal - people have different opinions - doesn't mean they are wrong or deserve being called names.

    I was just trying to get a reset or start over so everyone could enjoy posting on here - including you. But you obviously wanted none of that.

    I just can't stop, I seem determined to pick a fight.

    Well to each his own. I choose to enjoy the forum. Guess I'll just have to avoid your fights

    There I go..yet again.

  • texdawgtexdawg Posts: 11,581 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    I sincerely tried. You are obviously dealing with things in your life that are affecting your point of view and attitude towards others. I don't know what they are but I will pray that things start getting better for you.

  • WCDawgWCDawg Posts: 17,293 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @texdawg said:
    I sincerely tried. You are obviously dealing with things in your life that are affecting your point of view and attitude towards others. I don't know what they are but I will pray that things start getting better for you.

    I just can't stop can I ?

  • AnotherDawgAnotherDawg Posts: 6,762 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    Good thread Don. I am an AJC subscriber but could not find the article via the link. Still, I understand the topic, and I appreciate the posts from @Acrum21 and @texdawg. I'm a former baseball prospect, pitcher, and UCL survivor, as well as a former baseball dad, and now, a travel baseball coach.

    In my experience, Smoltz is dead on with his commentary, and I tend to agree with Mazzone as well, though he can take things to an extreme. I could write a book with my own thoughts on this subject, but keeping it short for this thread...

    1. Recovery time is THE #1 issue. A teenager can safely throw 100 pitches in a game, as long as he doesn't throw again for 3-4 days. That's how the pros do it. Conversely, the way youth tournaments are run these days, a kid might throw three innings in the morning, three innings in the afternoon, and two innings the next day. He may not hit 100 pitches total, but it's absolutely terrible for his arm.
    2. Curveballs are almost a non-issue.
    3. Playing other sports is essential. The program I help run encourages kids to play football and basketball, or whatever (wrestling, track, doesn't matter) during other seasons, and take a break from baseball.
    4. Long toss is critical. Many programs neglect this, and many parents/kids don't even know what it is.
    5. Proper arm care is important. This includes stretching, use of arm bands, icing after pitching, and running (sprints and distance, same day and/or next day, after pitching).

    Lastly, communication is important. It can also be tricky. Some kids complain of arm pain at the drop of a hat, and they may need to learn how to pitch through soreness and build arm strength. But in my experience, the best pitchers are usually the opposite. They won't admit arm soreness, and they'll often pitch with it, without anyone knowing. Over time, the soreness turns to pain, and their arm is subjected to undue stress. Next thing you know they're popping Advil, pitching through pain, and putting on a brave face, right up to the point that their ligament pops.

    So, whether you're a coach or a dad, check in with the kid, and see how he's doing. When he says "fine," ask again. And keep an eye on him, especially when he doesn't know you're watching. Most important, no matter what level your kid is playing, ENJOY the moment. Making the pros is a one in a million shot. Don't view your kid as a prospect. You won't know when you're watching his final season, or his final game, until it's over.

  • texdawgtexdawg Posts: 11,581 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @AnotherDawg said:
    Good thread Don. I am an AJC subscriber but could not find the article via the link. Still, I understand the topic, and I appreciate the posts from @Acrum21 and @texdawg. I'm a former baseball prospect, pitcher, and UCL survivor, as well as a former baseball dad, and now, a travel baseball coach.

    In my experience, Smoltz is dead on with his commentary, and I tend to agree with Mazzone as well, though he can take things to an extreme. I could write a book with my own thoughts on this subject, but keeping it short for this thread...

    1. Recovery time is THE #1 issue. A teenager can safely throw 100 pitches in a game, as long as he doesn't throw again for 3-4 days. That's how the pros do it. Conversely, the way youth tournaments are run these days, a kid might throw three innings in the morning, three innings in the afternoon, and two innings the next day. He may not hit 100 pitches total, but it's absolutely terrible for his arm.
    2. Curveballs are almost a non-issue.
    3. Playing other sports is essential. The program I help run encourages kids to play football and basketball, or whatever (wrestling, track, doesn't matter) during other seasons, and take a break from baseball.
    4. Long toss is critical. Many programs neglect this, and many parents/kids don't even know what it is.
    5. Proper arm care is important. This includes stretching, use of arm bands, icing after pitching, and running (sprints and distance, same day and/or next day, after pitching).

    Lastly, communication is important. It can also be tricky. Some kids complain of arm pain at the drop of a hat, and they may need to learn how to pitch through soreness and build arm strength. But in my experience, the best pitchers are usually the opposite. They won't admit arm soreness, and they'll often pitch with it, without anyone knowing. Over time, the soreness turns to pain, and their arm is subjected to undue stress. Next thing you know they're popping Advil, pitching through pain, and putting on a brave face, right up to the point that their ligament pops.

    So, whether you're a coach or a dad, check in with the kid, and see how he's doing. When he says "fine," ask again. And keep an eye on him, especially when he doesn't know you're watching. Most important, no matter what level your kid is playing, ENJOY the moment. Making the pros is a one in a million shot. Don't view your kid as a prospect. You won't know when you're watching his final season, or his final game, until it's over.

    Thank you for a great post. You obviously know what you are talking about. Your advice is very consistent with what I believe to be correct - especially long toss and proper care.

  • WCDawgWCDawg Posts: 17,293 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate
    edited January 2019

    @AnotherDawg said:
    Good thread Don. I am an AJC subscriber but could not find the article via the link. Still, I understand the topic, and I appreciate the posts from @Acrum21 and @texdawg. I'm a former baseball prospect, pitcher, and UCL survivor, as well as a former baseball dad, and now, a travel baseball coach.

    In my experience, Smoltz is dead on with his commentary, and I tend to agree with Mazzone as well, though he can take things to an extreme. I could write a book with my own thoughts on this subject, but keeping it short for this thread...

    1. Recovery time is THE #1 issue. A teenager can safely throw 100 pitches in a game, as long as he doesn't throw again for 3-4 days. That's how the pros do it. Conversely, the way youth tournaments are run these days, a kid might throw three innings in the morning, three innings in the afternoon, and two innings the next day. He may not hit 100 pitches total, but it's absolutely terrible for his arm.
    2. Curveballs are almost a non-issue.
    3. Playing other sports is essential. The program I help run encourages kids to play football and basketball, or whatever (wrestling, track, doesn't matter) during other seasons, and take a break from baseball.
    4. Long toss is critical. Many programs neglect this, and many parents/kids don't even know what it is.
    5. Proper arm care is important. This includes stretching, use of arm bands, icing after pitching, and running (sprints and distance, same day and/or next day, after pitching).

    Lastly, communication is important. It can also be tricky. Some kids complain of arm pain at the drop of a hat, and they may need to learn how to pitch through soreness and build arm strength. But in my experience, the best pitchers are usually the opposite. They won't admit arm soreness, and they'll often pitch with it, without anyone knowing. Over time, the soreness turns to pain, and their arm is subjected to undue stress. Next thing you know they're popping Advil, pitching through pain, and putting on a brave face, right up to the point that their ligament pops.

    So, whether you're a coach or a dad, check in with the kid, and see how he's doing. When he says "fine," ask again. And keep an eye on him, especially when he doesn't know you're watching. Most important, no matter what level your kid is playing, ENJOY the moment. Making the pros is a one in a million shot. Don't view your kid as a prospect. You won't know when you're watching his final season, or his final game, until it's over.

    Leo Mazzone had his pitchers throw every day with The Braves. It went against popular beliefs but it's hard to argue with results. Glavine was 41 years old before he ever spent a day on the injured reserve list and Maddux spent 15 days on it in his 23 year career only because 15 days is the minimum he could spend on it the one and only time he used it.

    Leo believed in packing the arm and shoulder with ice as soon as a starter came out of a game and have them in hot therapy by the next day and throwing later in the day after having pitched the day or night before. Keep in mind these guys also played a ton of golf during the season.

  • WCDawgWCDawg Posts: 17,293 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @texdawg said:

    @donm said:
    Just read this article in the AJC and found it fascinating. It deals with pitching in baseball and what advanced analytics has wrought with the way pitchers are used. Some very interesting stats, especially with Greg Maddux. I thought it might give us something other than politics to argue about - at least for a short while. Some cool Maddux quotes and Leo Mazzone quotes, too.

    https://epaper.ajc.com/html5/reader/production/default.aspx?pubname=&edid=99bc7be3-1e19-4455-84b4-d24c09f2c2a3

    Thanks for posting article. Unfortunately I wasn't able to open it because I need to subscribe to the AJC.

    I have a 6'5" fourteen year old who is a very good pitcher. There is so much conflicting information out there about the best way to develop young pitchers that it's difficult to know what is right.

    How often they should throw, how long should they be shut down or should they even be shut down, and when they should start throwing breaking balls and how often.

    We have decided to be very conservative with my son and we shut him down for long periods of time and limit how many breaking pitches he throws - and he didn't learn the breaking pitch until he was 13. Don't know if that is the right way or not. But I'm confident that over using a 14 year old boy to help win major or AAA tournaments isn't in their best interest.

    I don't know the right answer but I do know there are a whole lot more arm injuries now than there used to be.

    I've stayed out of advising on pitching because I have an inherently impinged rotator cuff, I never could throw over a few pitches without having my arm go rubbery.
    That said, use the guidelines, no more than 75 pitches any day, no more than 118 a week ( I could be off a bit on this one) and 1000 pitches in a season. Don't throw curves or sliders, work to stay loose and strong, work on mechanics and the change up.

  • LakeDawgLakeDawg Posts: 52 ✭✭✭ Junior

    Well said @AnotherDawg... I played baseball through college and now I'm on the coach/dad side of things. In college I saw kids come in that were just burned out on the game, good players but just had lost the love for the game. I never really understood b/c I played basketball and football also in high school and never got involved in the travel ball world outside of rec and all-star teams.

    Now I look around and see why... kids are playing 50+ games a year at 7 years old. My youngest son is 7 and a pretty good athlete, we have been asked by different travel ball teams to play with them. When I ask about how much they play the response has been "their young so we only travel once a month to tournaments and practice 2-3 days a week most weeks". I might understand it when their 10-12ish and up but 7 years old is rediculous in my book.

    I don't mean to ruffle any feathers if your kid is on a travel ball team. As Anotherdawg said communication, stretching, and rest is most important. But let a kid be a kid!

    Just my 2¢

  • WCDawgWCDawg Posts: 17,293 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate
    edited January 2019

    @LakeDawg said:
    Well said @AnotherDawg... I played baseball through college and now I'm on the coach/dad side of things. In college I saw kids come in that were just burned out on the game, good players but just had lost the love for the game. I never really understood b/c I played basketball and football also in high school and never got involved in the travel ball world outside of rec and all-star teams.

    Now I look around and see why... kids are playing 50+ games a year at 7 years old. My youngest son is 7 and a pretty good athlete, we have been asked by different travel ball teams to play with them. When I ask about how much they play the response has been "their young so we only travel once a month to tournaments and practice 2-3 days a week most weeks". I might understand it when their 10-12ish and up but 7 years old is rediculous in my book.

    I don't mean to ruffle any feathers if your kid is on a travel ball team. As Anotherdawg said communication, stretching, and rest is most important. But let a kid be a kid!

    Just my 2¢

    His advice goes against the guidelines compiled orthopedic surgeons and other experts though, that seems risky to me. At 14 years old a 75 pitch limit is recommended. Managers don't even let major league rookies go 100 pitches very often.

  • SaltDawg1515SaltDawg1515 Posts: 66 ✭✭ Sophomore

    Travel ball has gotten way out of control. It's all on the parents, because everyone thinks their little Johnny will be the next MLB HOF, or Atlanta United All Star. I say this as a HS Football coach, who has had many conversations with kids playing travel baseball and soccer and are too "busy" to actually play on their school's basketball and football teams. The rush to specialization and playing only one sport isnt good, nor is the most healthy approach to these developing young men and women. They arent old enough to make the correct decision, but the parents are and fail miserably. All so they can brag around the water cooler at work.

  • LakeDawgLakeDawg Posts: 52 ✭✭✭ Junior

    @WCDawg I don't mean to start an argument with you and I am no orthopedic surgeon but I took his post to mean 100 pitches could be thrown with adequate recovery time with no long term damage (and I don't think he insinuated that would be incouraged) but never over 3 games in a day and half. The 3 games over a day and half is the point. If I read it correctly!😄

    Leo was coaching grown adults, kids need rest.

    My post was a small soap box rant on travel ball for 7 year olds, how did I get into a pitch count discussion?

    Just my 2¢

Sign In or Register to comment.