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COVID-19 Check-in 2.0
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Sorry guys, asked a question before scrolling down.
Now the good stuff is coming out! Here’s food for thought, if you want to play that kind of game. @Denmen185 @YaleDawg The policies you support (and would like to strengthen) already created TENS of MILLIONS unemployed. How many depressed? How many suicides? Checked into rehab? Needing counseling? Murders? Robberies/looting? Spousal/Child abuse? Divorces? And the list goes on. If anyone has seen preliminary studies on any of these topics please link, because it needs to be part of this conversation.
You must be able to step out & understand cause and effect on LIVELIHOODS and lives. Literally everyone agrees we don’t want people to die, but unfortunately death is a part of life. Just as it was the last time a SARS virus circulated. So it will be the next time a virus circulates.
Viruses have killed people since the beginning of human history. How many times in history have American jobs been CANCELLED by the GOVERNMENT? EXACTLY...ZERO. NEVER IN HISTORY. Excuse me for choking on this pill I was forced to swallow.
I am working backwards here, Yale, just reading the posts.
And wanted to make sure that Den wasn't insisting (or maybe he was) that his stats were saying "youre gonna kill 16 people a month" if you don't stay away from people.
That's a little over the top, IMO...
Two things and I am done.
I would hesitate to use Sweden as good example of herd immunity in the summer. Discounting the comments about vitamin d the Swedes go to their “summer houses” , especially in July and August. This results in major reductions of people in cities, as most people take large amounts of time off outside of towns while the weather is nice. So the data may be more reflective of summer in Sweden versus herd immunity. Also the Swedes are generally much more rule oriented, so if there told to distance they do it.
The discussion on Ebola is an interesting one to me. The countries that are having major success in now containing the virus have treated Covid like more deadly viruses. Stricter enforcement of lockdowns, early testing, better contact tracing, enforcement of lockdown for those that have tested positive, etc. These countries are having better outcomes related to virus transmission now, and consequently are seeing a better economic results. The two are not independent. Treating Covid seriously, like we would with Ebola, is critical to normalizing the economy longer term. My genuine hope would be if Ebola was going on there wouldn’t be the extreme politicization of it.
You could be right, but let's recall the argument from the article. A certain level of the population has to become immune before the virus burns out. If you lock up, you are only delaying the cases. Assuming Sweden has hit the HIT, they should actually do much better than their neighbors going forward, especially in fall and winter.
Do you have any concrete data on how many Swedes have summer homes, or are you speculating? That is an interesting supposition.
For all those that want to follow the Sweden model, their economy is in as bad a shape as the rest of Europe and is currently in a virtual shutdown. The government didn't impose a stay-at-home but as the deaths continued to rise the consumers shut it down which is why the cases and deaths have declined. The key will be which economies recover the quickest. Unemployment is not caused by the shutdown it is caused by lack of consumer confidence.
Sure sounds like a lot of denial to me this morning. The charts represent facts. I can post a number of articles attacking Sweden and saying their policy would lead to disaster, but now we are getting rationalizations for why that policy shouldn't have worked, but somehow did work. The drop in disease and death rates is due to summer homes, economic depression, and that Sweden really did do a lockdown even though they have been skewered for not locking down. My advice would be for everybody to keep an open mind. Let's go where the facts take us.
Apples and Oranges. Sweden's economy is not our economy. No country in the world (China? - with a 2 billion person forced labor work force) has the flexibility and strength of our economy. And our consumer confidence is NOT the main cause of our current unemployment issues. It is what the government made us do - BY FAR. And if the government fails to provide free childcare (school) moving forward, it will continue to be the main cause.
Again - philosophically different viewpoints. Should you have the CHOICE to stay at home, not buy or sell stuff, or should we rely on the government to tell us when the boogyman is gone...
The economy is much more complex than that overly simplified statement. Even if your claim that it is consumer confidence that causes unemployment (big stretch) is taken as a fact, then we must assume the shutdown caused a massive reduction in consumer confidence which in turn caused unemployment to skyrocket.
And, I thought the argument was:
"If the virus is stopped, the economy will come back... As soon as we get cases and deaths down, we will be fine..."
Sweden has done both. And I am being told they are in economic shambles. Like the rest of Europe.
But, our economy was in a much better place going in. Again, apples and oranges.
But are virus comparisons any better? We are probably much closer as a species to those folks than we are as an economy (tongue and cheek). But I have always said you should compare our STATES to those countries to get a better look.
I think the virus has won so far in both places...
I need to move to Sweden. Does everyone have two houses?
This is hard to discuss reasonably because it involves an assessment of “acceptable loss of human life” but isn’t that what we do before deciding how much money gets applied to medical research for one disease vs another?
In theory, Covid should be a one time event, whereas other causes of death are ongoing year after year.
How much do we spend annually trying to prevent the 650,000 heart disease deaths annually? Not any where near $2 trillion dollars
Same question about the following:
500,000 who die of cancer annually.
160,000 who die of COPD
146,000 who die of a ****
83,000 from diabetes
The above constitute almost 1.5 MILLION deaths a year on their own. The problem is that of the 140,000 Americans who have died of Covid, all but 6% already had one of the above medical conditions, and most had more than one of the above medical conditions 80% of the deceased are 65 or older. A quarter had already exceeded the average life expectancy of an American citizen(78.9 years)
My question is “How many of those 140,000 plus the others to follow, were going to die within the next few years? The answer is we don’t know but it would likely have been an astonishing percentage because a huge percentage were people who were already unhealthy. Sorry, but that really does matter. This thing is not really taking out healthy people, which is why an ebola type response would not have been appropriate.
We were NEVER going to see millions die from this, and while Sweden may not be a good measure for herd immunity, it is the poster child for doing nothing. I’ll bet Georgia has near the same number of deaths as Sweden in the end.
Now look at the cost we’ve inflicted. The trillions spent by the Federal Govt are just the tip of the biggest iceberg in history.
The budgets of every State and local government has been absolutely crushed, plus the loss of individual wealth and small to medium sized businesses.
Honestly, who isn’t worried that if this continues it could result in the downfall of our civilization? Dramatic? Not in my opinion. Money is why the Soviet Union fell.
People die. Every day. Lots of them. The excess deaths we’ve experienced this year will be made up in the next few years because those same people won’t be here to die of the above mentioned causes of death.
If we have ever had a reason to overthrow our Govt, then this is it. Problem is, I’m not sure that’s not what’s really going on already.
Speaking of Sweden, I had a client yesterday tell me her MIL had recently died over there. She had cancer, and started suffering from dementia. She’s in her 80’s. All of the kids are spread out and nobody had power of attorney.
So they bring the ole girl in for treatment and tell her they need to run a few tests. She asks, “Does that mean you are going to stick me?” Yes, they told her. She said, “Oh I don’t want you to do that because it hurts.” Remember, she also has dementia.
Because she told the person she didn't want to be stuck with a needle, they labeled her as refusing healthcare and sent her back to the nursing home to die - which has since happened. The family was told there was nothing they could do because nobody had power of attorney.
The Swedes DGAF
Seriously? If economic downturn and deaths were the issue don’t you think we’d have the same numbers?
I see. We don’t need a government mandate. We just need more people to die.
Sounds like they followed the law and medical ethics? Unless they have a law for compulsory medical care in that situation you can't give help to someone who refuses.
That is exactly the position I would expect you to take, and it is how things will be here someday if certain folks get their way.
You can numb the spot where you are going to stick a needle. It really requires a complete lack of caring and compassion to not be able to get someone to try a needle vs certain death.