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"Pacific war turned in a manner of 5 min ...." Could make that argument, depending on if another US carrier was sunk, and how many Japanese carriers were sunk. It certainly would have lengthened the war by 1-2 years.
A great (IMO) What If is what if Japan had not attacked or in some fashion declared war on the US. Japan in effect lost the war as soon as the first bomb exploded on Hawaii. But at that time (from memory), it had occupied what is now Vietnam (French). Siam (Thailand) was technically independent but had occupation forces in country - a puppet and vassal of Japan. It occupied coastal and northern China and Manchuria (minerals), and I think had already occupied Korea. They lost all of this on surrender. Japan had not yet conquered the Dutch East Indies (oil), nor Malaysia (British) nor Burma (British).
The argument is that due to the US cutting off oil (in particular), and trade in raw minerals in protest of what Japan was doing in China, Japan was forced to attack the US. But the Dutch government was in exile in Britain, its country now occupied by Nazi Germany. I think that the Dutch government would have agreed to sell oil from its Indonesia colony (Dutch East Indies). Like Siam, Japan had a stranglehold on any trade that the Dutch could hope to engage in.
Japan could have caused the British fits in India via propaganda and independence talk, as it did to some extent anyway pushing a racial war type propaganda. It might have brought The Philippines into its orbit for similar reasons. It likely could not have invaded British territory without outright invading the Dutch East Indies. It would likely have done this at some point, but to throw the British and US off balance, it would have done better by waiting to do so.
Here's the big corollary. Hitler declared war on the US in Dec 1941 as a means to show goodwill to Japan in hopes (stupidly) that Japan would attack the USSR, forcing the latter into a two front conflict. Japan had already received a bloody nose in 1939? attacking the USSR at the Amur River area. For that reason, and others, Japan had no desire to have its own 2-3 front war (it never took China's efforts seriously but had the bulk of its army there). Hitler lost the war in effect when it declared war on the US.
So, when would Hitler have attacked the US? How would the UK and USSR have fared in the interim? My guess is that the USSR would have had a stalemate at best for an extended period and lost more territory and far more troops. The UK would likely have not been invaded but would have been barely hanging on. Churchill would have been hounded out of office, perhaps to be restored later when the US came into the conflict, if it did.
Anyone seen this yet? Am hoping it is less "Pearl Harbor" than I get the feeling it might be.
Pearl Harbor was the worst piece of cinematic garbage to ever grace the big screen....maybe tied w Armageddon.
I love good war movies & war history but the trailers for this look more like the next Star Wars. The last legit war movie I saw was Fury. Even though it starred the Bradiator, the supporting cast, story line & raw brutality made the top 10 in war movies for me.
I think I'll wait for this one to come out on HBO & save my actual trip to a theater for the next (last) Star Wars this Christmas.
I cheered when Josh Hartnett got shot at the end of Pearl Harbor
I cheered when Ben got his gf stolen then again when Josh got shot and yet again when the movie ended
Kate Beckinsale
Beginning and end of all the good things in Pearl Harbor. (And I don't mean her acting)
YEa God was showing off when he made her
I saw it. I enjoyed it for what it was, a Hollywood version of the war/battle. I wasn't, and still am not, familiar with the main actors/actresses (other than Dennis Quaid and **** H.), which is a plus. They didn't annoy me. I would say it is more like Unbreakable than Pearl Harbor in terms of the feel of the movie. Although it has been years since I've seen either.
I'm not a history buff so I don't know how it compares to historical "facts". I'm generally not overly critical of movies other than being easily annoyed by certain actors/actresses and overacting in general. So take the above for what it's worth.
I also saw the previous version which featured a very short-lived special theatre effect called SENSURROUND that used large speakers strategically placed around the cinema (other movies with it were Earthquake and RollerCoaster).
I remember one scene where a giant B-17 bomber landed on only one wheel. Just this year my family finally learned what happened to my father’s first cousin, who was KIA in 1943. He was copilot of a B-17 that was part of a massive raid on Stuttgart on Sept 3. Over France smoke was noticed trailing from the bomb bay, so his plane broke from the tight defensive formation to check it out. The plane then exploded killing 6, but amazingly 4 men survived and 2 evaded capture.
Remembering Flight Officer Harvey Protsman of Menden, Ohio.
The father of a buddy at UGA was a Pilot of a B-17 in WWII. He let me wear hid father's flight jacket on campus. He had a scrap book documenting each flight. Lots of flack. Said they use to wash tailgunner's remains out with a fire hose.
Shot down over France and helped by the Underground. Picture of the crew in front of their bird. Looked like kids.
FirePlugDawg I never paid attention much to 'What ifs' in history. Figure history is fascinating enough and plenty of it that I do not know. But your speculation was interesting.
What if LBJ never escalated Vietnam War? Was that part of our containment that slowed Red growth until the USSR broke up?
Would that have slowed USA change in culture (counterculture then).
Would the Great Society expanded Federal Government how much faster (because the war brought down LBJ) but Govt. growth continued.
How would a lack of war to protest affected rock N roll?
I think we are telling everyone how old we are Turk!
They were kids.....the greatest generation. Could you Imagine millennial’s these days being shipped off to war?? Therapy squirrels & selfies right before their heads are blown off
That is a good one, too. On a personal basis, my life would have been changed greatly. Nixon wouldn't have been president, at least as early as he did.
As to the "Japan doesn't make war with the US" What If, I have never seen this, although one might exist. Other implications are that there would be no US involvement in Korea or Vietnam - no reason to believe these would occur. It is unlikely that Japan would have had a self-assessment that led to its industries adopting (American) quality improvement measures, and therefore, we'd likely be driving bulky, crappy cars still. India and Burma would likely have had a violent break with Britain. China would now be a backwater nation. Japan would be an active adversary to US activity in all of eastern and south Asia and the Pacific area generally. The USSR might still be an entity. The UK and Australia would have been affected in unknown ways, but certainly wouldn't be what they are today. Israel would likely not exist - which might be the purpose of WW2 in the big picture sense.
Saw Midway tonight. Good flick, better than expected. Can't put it up with SPR tho. Casting didn't help. The whole time I'm thinking, hey Deadpool! There's Francis! Then I was waiting for the other guy to start singing about nacho fries.
Oh, and the second most talented Jonas brother.
I am a big WWII buff, and I’ve studied the Pacific war a good bit. We saw Midway and really liked it. It does hold true to the basic history of things and is nothing like that trash movie, Pearl Harbor. I’d recommend seeing it. One thing to notice is early in the first wave of American torpedo bomber attacks (which were terribly ineffective and where almost all our torpedo bomber pilots get killed), George Gay, one of the pilots, crashes in the ocean. He floats on a life preserver for 30 hours before being rescued after the battle. Of the squadron’s 30 torpedo plane pilots, he was the only survivor. He literally floated in the water in the middle of the battle and witnessed, up close, the sinking of the Japanese carriers. He lived in Georgia after the war and died in Marietta in 1994. I got to meet hi in high school. A real hero.
That is very cool. And good of you to remember him here for us.
Very good of you to remember him for us.
Funny, I didn't even know a Jonas brother was in the movie. Also, I didn't recognize any of the younger actors. I'm so out of touch with pop culture it is laughable.