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Atlanta Braves

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  • Options
    KirbstomperKirbstomper Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate
    edited October 2018

    @Bigcalidawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @Bigcalidawg said:
    I hope we leave the team in tact. Far as I’m concerned, Enciarte and Flaherty are the only guys I wouldpart with. I’m sure the cheap free agents we picked up are back on the block.

    Ronnie and Nick are winning hitters. We can put Ronnie in Center and platoon Austin and somebody else in left. We don’t have much in the minors until Pache, and his hitting may never develop.

    We had a home run stick, but sent him back to the Dodgers. We need somebody who can hit .280 and 20 homers in a platoon role.

    One question I have is “Who would be better in left, Johan, or Austin?”

    But nick had a really bad second half and playoffs, and was really bad the previous 3 years he was here. That first half came out of nowhere and Projections are going to think he will regress.

    Also even in enciartes down year he was better than nick by 0.3 WAR. Ender is just a really gifted outfielder and gets a lot of value there. So lol at saying bring back neck and dump ender.

    https://www.fangraphs.com/teams/braves

    Markakis has averaged 39 doubles, 173 hits and a .360 on base percentage over his 4 seasons in Atlanta. He's also averaged around 675 plate appearances, that is a huge consideration.
    If your lineup can get on base at a good rate, get in scoring position and knock in base runners with a lot of doubles, you'll score a lot of runs.

    I mean he was good last year, as in a top 80 position player in the MLB at 2.6 WAR. And he was not good for like 4 years before this year. And his career year this year was really lifted by an out of his mind first half. Do you buy into that half? Do you buy into the second half, or the previous year? It’s all about who you think he really is.
    Projection systems are going to estimate him to be sub 2 WAR, which is a below average starter. For reference, Dansby was worth 1.9 this year and Suzuki a perfect 2.0.

    It is telling that the team declined to submit a qualifying offer to him, which was 17.6 Million this year. I wouldn’t hate him back on a 1 year stopgap contract, but I’d hope that would be after trying to upgrade the spot via trade and finding some pitching help.

    It’s made difficult by the fact that we don’t have outfield studs like we have at every other position.

    Which makes it the perfect position for a big upgrade! Well that and catcher (go Realmuto!)

    I don’t want to see us mortgage the future for a corner outfield spot.

    What would you consider mortgaging the future? Trading away 3 of our upper level pitching prospects? Trading 5? Trading all of our top 10 prospects? The point is to try and win your division and win the World Series. To do this the Braves will need to make some significant upgrades.

    I don’t really care if they trade any of our prospects (maybe besides soroka) as long as they get appropriate value for them. I’d bet that if we gave up Kyle Wright and Luis Gohara and Bryce Wilson or something like that for JT Realmuto, people wouldn’t be too upset.

  • Options
    WCDawgWCDawg Posts: 17,293 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate
    edited October 2018

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @Bigcalidawg said:
    I hope we leave the team in tact. Far as I’m concerned, Enciarte and Flaherty are the only guys I wouldpart with. I’m sure the cheap free agents we picked up are back on the block.

    Ronnie and Nick are winning hitters. We can put Ronnie in Center and platoon Austin and somebody else in left. We don’t have much in the minors until Pache, and his hitting may never develop.

    We had a home run stick, but sent him back to the Dodgers. We need somebody who can hit .280 and 20 homers in a platoon role.

    One question I have is “Who would be better in left, Johan, or Austin?”

    But nick had a really bad second half and playoffs, and was really bad the previous 3 years he was here. That first half came out of nowhere and Projections are going to think he will regress.

    Also even in enciartes down year he was better than nick by 0.3 WAR. Ender is just a really gifted outfielder and gets a lot of value there. So lol at saying bring back neck and dump ender.

    https://www.fangraphs.com/teams/braves

    Markakis has averaged 39 doubles, 173 hits and a .360 on base percentage over his 4 seasons in Atlanta. He's also averaged around 675 plate appearances, that is a huge consideration.
    If your lineup can get on base at a good rate, get in scoring position and knock in base runners with a lot of doubles, you'll score a lot of runs.

    I mean he was good last year, as in a top 80 position player in the MLB at 2.6 WAR. And he was not good for like 4 years before this year. And his career year this year was really lifted by an out of his mind first half. Do you buy into that half? Do you buy into the second half, or the previous year? It’s all about who you think he really is.
    Projection systems are going to estimate him to be sub 2 WAR, which is a below average starter. For reference, Dansby was worth 1.9 this year and Suzuki a perfect 2.0.

    It is telling that the team declined to submit a qualifying offer to him, which was 17.6 Million this year. I wouldn’t hate him back on a 1 year stopgap contract, but I’d hope that would be after trying to upgrade the spot via trade and finding some pitching help.

    He's really been pretty good all 4 years in Atlanta though. That's why I posted his 4 year averages.

    He's not a superstar, but he adds a lot of value to the lineup. Sometimes WAR gives a good accounting of value but 173 hits, 39 doubles, a .360 on base average and 675 plate appearances on average over his time with The Braves gives a pretty full accounting. If every spot in the lineup gave you those numbers you'd score a lot of runs.

  • Options
    WCDawgWCDawg Posts: 17,293 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @Bigcalidawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @Bigcalidawg said:
    I hope we leave the team in tact. Far as I’m concerned, Enciarte and Flaherty are the only guys I wouldpart with. I’m sure the cheap free agents we picked up are back on the block.

    Ronnie and Nick are winning hitters. We can put Ronnie in Center and platoon Austin and somebody else in left. We don’t have much in the minors until Pache, and his hitting may never develop.

    We had a home run stick, but sent him back to the Dodgers. We need somebody who can hit .280 and 20 homers in a platoon role.

    One question I have is “Who would be better in left, Johan, or Austin?”

    But nick had a really bad second half and playoffs, and was really bad the previous 3 years he was here. That first half came out of nowhere and Projections are going to think he will regress.

    Also even in enciartes down year he was better than nick by 0.3 WAR. Ender is just a really gifted outfielder and gets a lot of value there. So lol at saying bring back neck and dump ender.

    https://www.fangraphs.com/teams/braves

    Markakis has averaged 39 doubles, 173 hits and a .360 on base percentage over his 4 seasons in Atlanta. He's also averaged around 675 plate appearances, that is a huge consideration.
    If your lineup can get on base at a good rate, get in scoring position and knock in base runners with a lot of doubles, you'll score a lot of runs.

    I mean he was good last year, as in a top 80 position player in the MLB at 2.6 WAR. And he was not good for like 4 years before this year. And his career year this year was really lifted by an out of his mind first half. Do you buy into that half? Do you buy into the second half, or the previous year? It’s all about who you think he really is.
    Projection systems are going to estimate him to be sub 2 WAR, which is a below average starter. For reference, Dansby was worth 1.9 this year and Suzuki a perfect 2.0.

    It is telling that the team declined to submit a qualifying offer to him, which was 17.6 Million this year. I wouldn’t hate him back on a 1 year stopgap contract, but I’d hope that would be after trying to upgrade the spot via trade and finding some pitching help.

    It’s made difficult by the fact that we don’t have outfield studs like we have at every other position.

    Which makes it the perfect position for a big upgrade! Well that and catcher (go Realmuto!)

    I don’t want to see us mortgage the future for a corner outfield spot.

    What would you consider mortgaging the future? Trading away 3 of our upper level pitching prospects? Trading 5? Trading all of our top 10 prospects? The point is to try and win your division and win the World Series. To do this the Braves will need to make some significant upgrades.

    I don’t really care if they trade any of our prospects (maybe besides soroka) as long as they get appropriate value for them. I’d bet that if we gave up Kyle Wright and Luis Gohara and Bryce Wilson or something like that for JT Realmuto, people wouldn’t be too upset.

    That would seem a steep price for 2 years service.

  • Options
    BigcalidawgBigcalidawg Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    I really like Wilson and Wright.

  • Options
    KirbstomperKirbstomper Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @Bigcalidawg said:
    I hope we leave the team in tact. Far as I’m concerned, Enciarte and Flaherty are the only guys I wouldpart with. I’m sure the cheap free agents we picked up are back on the block.

    Ronnie and Nick are winning hitters. We can put Ronnie in Center and platoon Austin and somebody else in left. We don’t have much in the minors until Pache, and his hitting may never develop.

    We had a home run stick, but sent him back to the Dodgers. We need somebody who can hit .280 and 20 homers in a platoon role.

    One question I have is “Who would be better in left, Johan, or Austin?”

    But nick had a really bad second half and playoffs, and was really bad the previous 3 years he was here. That first half came out of nowhere and Projections are going to think he will regress.

    Also even in enciartes down year he was better than nick by 0.3 WAR. Ender is just a really gifted outfielder and gets a lot of value there. So lol at saying bring back neck and dump ender.

    https://www.fangraphs.com/teams/braves

    Markakis has averaged 39 doubles, 173 hits and a .360 on base percentage over his 4 seasons in Atlanta. He's also averaged around 675 plate appearances, that is a huge consideration.
    If your lineup can get on base at a good rate, get in scoring position and knock in base runners with a lot of doubles, you'll score a lot of runs.

    I mean he was good last year, as in a top 80 position player in the MLB at 2.6 WAR. And he was not good for like 4 years before this year. And his career year this year was really lifted by an out of his mind first half. Do you buy into that half? Do you buy into the second half, or the previous year? It’s all about who you think he really is.
    Projection systems are going to estimate him to be sub 2 WAR, which is a below average starter. For reference, Dansby was worth 1.9 this year and Suzuki a perfect 2.0.

    It is telling that the team declined to submit a qualifying offer to him, which was 17.6 Million this year. I wouldn’t hate him back on a 1 year stopgap contract, but I’d hope that would be after trying to upgrade the spot via trade and finding some pitching help.

    He's really been pretty good all 4 years in Atlanta though. That's why I posted his 4 year averages.

    He's not a superstar, but he adds a lot of value to the lineup. Sometimes WAR gives a good accounting of value but 173 hits, 39 doubles, a .360 on base average and 675 plate appearances on average over his time with The Braves gives a pretty full accounting. If every spot in the lineup gave you those numbers you'd score a lot of runs.

    Well with a low homer total and below average base running we would probably score close to the league average in runs. Again that’s what WRC+ and wOBA are good for, telling us the amount of runs your at bats give us. Nicks 4 year average WRC+ is probably about 100 which is the league average. That doesn’t make him a bad or good hitter it makes him an average hitter, at least over this 4 year sample size, who gets his value with a good OBP and poor power numbers. Again he was better than average last year.

    A team that scores the league average in runs will win a lot of games with above average pitching and defense.

    As much as I loved nick this year, I guess I’m just one of the guys who doesn’t buy into him repeating it.

  • Options
    KirbstomperKirbstomper Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @Bigcalidawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @Bigcalidawg said:
    I hope we leave the team in tact. Far as I’m concerned, Enciarte and Flaherty are the only guys I wouldpart with. I’m sure the cheap free agents we picked up are back on the block.

    Ronnie and Nick are winning hitters. We can put Ronnie in Center and platoon Austin and somebody else in left. We don’t have much in the minors until Pache, and his hitting may never develop.

    We had a home run stick, but sent him back to the Dodgers. We need somebody who can hit .280 and 20 homers in a platoon role.

    One question I have is “Who would be better in left, Johan, or Austin?”

    But nick had a really bad second half and playoffs, and was really bad the previous 3 years he was here. That first half came out of nowhere and Projections are going to think he will regress.

    Also even in enciartes down year he was better than nick by 0.3 WAR. Ender is just a really gifted outfielder and gets a lot of value there. So lol at saying bring back neck and dump ender.

    https://www.fangraphs.com/teams/braves

    Markakis has averaged 39 doubles, 173 hits and a .360 on base percentage over his 4 seasons in Atlanta. He's also averaged around 675 plate appearances, that is a huge consideration.
    If your lineup can get on base at a good rate, get in scoring position and knock in base runners with a lot of doubles, you'll score a lot of runs.

    I mean he was good last year, as in a top 80 position player in the MLB at 2.6 WAR. And he was not good for like 4 years before this year. And his career year this year was really lifted by an out of his mind first half. Do you buy into that half? Do you buy into the second half, or the previous year? It’s all about who you think he really is.
    Projection systems are going to estimate him to be sub 2 WAR, which is a below average starter. For reference, Dansby was worth 1.9 this year and Suzuki a perfect 2.0.

    It is telling that the team declined to submit a qualifying offer to him, which was 17.6 Million this year. I wouldn’t hate him back on a 1 year stopgap contract, but I’d hope that would be after trying to upgrade the spot via trade and finding some pitching help.

    It’s made difficult by the fact that we don’t have outfield studs like we have at every other position.

    Which makes it the perfect position for a big upgrade! Well that and catcher (go Realmuto!)

    I don’t want to see us mortgage the future for a corner outfield spot.

    What would you consider mortgaging the future? Trading away 3 of our upper level pitching prospects? Trading 5? Trading all of our top 10 prospects? The point is to try and win your division and win the World Series. To do this the Braves will need to make some significant upgrades.

    I don’t really care if they trade any of our prospects (maybe besides soroka) as long as they get appropriate value for them. I’d bet that if we gave up Kyle Wright and Luis Gohara and Bryce Wilson or something like that for JT Realmuto, people wouldn’t be too upset.

    That would seem a steep price for 2 years service.

    Yeah, it always seems like that. But if we want to get him that might not even be enough. I posted earlier in this thread about a theoretical Realmuto to the Braves trade if you remember.

  • Options
    WCDawgWCDawg Posts: 17,293 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @Bigcalidawg said:
    I hope we leave the team in tact. Far as I’m concerned, Enciarte and Flaherty are the only guys I wouldpart with. I’m sure the cheap free agents we picked up are back on the block.

    Ronnie and Nick are winning hitters. We can put Ronnie in Center and platoon Austin and somebody else in left. We don’t have much in the minors until Pache, and his hitting may never develop.

    We had a home run stick, but sent him back to the Dodgers. We need somebody who can hit .280 and 20 homers in a platoon role.

    One question I have is “Who would be better in left, Johan, or Austin?”

    But nick had a really bad second half and playoffs, and was really bad the previous 3 years he was here. That first half came out of nowhere and Projections are going to think he will regress.

    Also even in enciartes down year he was better than nick by 0.3 WAR. Ender is just a really gifted outfielder and gets a lot of value there. So lol at saying bring back neck and dump ender.

    https://www.fangraphs.com/teams/braves

    Markakis has averaged 39 doubles, 173 hits and a .360 on base percentage over his 4 seasons in Atlanta. He's also averaged around 675 plate appearances, that is a huge consideration.
    If your lineup can get on base at a good rate, get in scoring position and knock in base runners with a lot of doubles, you'll score a lot of runs.

    I mean he was good last year, as in a top 80 position player in the MLB at 2.6 WAR. And he was not good for like 4 years before this year. And his career year this year was really lifted by an out of his mind first half. Do you buy into that half? Do you buy into the second half, or the previous year? It’s all about who you think he really is.
    Projection systems are going to estimate him to be sub 2 WAR, which is a below average starter. For reference, Dansby was worth 1.9 this year and Suzuki a perfect 2.0.

    It is telling that the team declined to submit a qualifying offer to him, which was 17.6 Million this year. I wouldn’t hate him back on a 1 year stopgap contract, but I’d hope that would be after trying to upgrade the spot via trade and finding some pitching help.

    He's really been pretty good all 4 years in Atlanta though. That's why I posted his 4 year averages.

    He's not a superstar, but he adds a lot of value to the lineup. Sometimes WAR gives a good accounting of value but 173 hits, 39 doubles, a .360 on base average and 675 plate appearances on average over his time with The Braves gives a pretty full accounting. If every spot in the lineup gave you those numbers you'd score a lot of runs.

    Well with a low homer total and below average base running we would probably score close to the league average in runs. Again that’s what WRC+ and wOBA are good for, telling us the amount of runs your at bats give us. Nicks 4 year average WRC+ is probably about 100 which is the league average. That doesn’t make him a bad or good hitter it makes him an average hitter, at least over this 4 year sample size, who gets his value with a good OBP and poor power numbers. Again he was better than average last year.

    A team that scores the league average in runs will win a lot of games with above average pitching and defense.

    As much as I loved nick this year, I guess I’m just one of the guys who doesn’t buy into him repeating it.

    If you get on base at a high rate and average around 60 extra base hits, you'll be a very valuable hitter.
    It would be great if you had 8 #3 type hitters and if you have a weak lineup overall, you need more hrs from somewhere. The math works when you have a lot of good contact hitters to keep moving around the bases though.
    During the height of the roid era The Yankees dominated without any big bashers because they were loaded with excellent contact hitters.

  • Options
    LD10LD10 Posts: 434 ✭✭✭✭ Senior

    Nick is a good player, but he has been hitting cleanup and this is not where he belongs in a MLB lineup. Need a cleanup hitter and Nick would be a good sixth place hitter. Freeman had great power numbers with Kemp at cleanup last year 2017.

  • Options
    KirbstomperKirbstomper Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @Bigcalidawg said:
    I hope we leave the team in tact. Far as I’m concerned, Enciarte and Flaherty are the only guys I wouldpart with. I’m sure the cheap free agents we picked up are back on the block.

    Ronnie and Nick are winning hitters. We can put Ronnie in Center and platoon Austin and somebody else in left. We don’t have much in the minors until Pache, and his hitting may never develop.

    We had a home run stick, but sent him back to the Dodgers. We need somebody who can hit .280 and 20 homers in a platoon role.

    One question I have is “Who would be better in left, Johan, or Austin?”

    But nick had a really bad second half and playoffs, and was really bad the previous 3 years he was here. That first half came out of nowhere and Projections are going to think he will regress.

    Also even in enciartes down year he was better than nick by 0.3 WAR. Ender is just a really gifted outfielder and gets a lot of value there. So lol at saying bring back neck and dump ender.

    https://www.fangraphs.com/teams/braves

    Markakis has averaged 39 doubles, 173 hits and a .360 on base percentage over his 4 seasons in Atlanta. He's also averaged around 675 plate appearances, that is a huge consideration.
    If your lineup can get on base at a good rate, get in scoring position and knock in base runners with a lot of doubles, you'll score a lot of runs.

    I mean he was good last year, as in a top 80 position player in the MLB at 2.6 WAR. And he was not good for like 4 years before this year. And his career year this year was really lifted by an out of his mind first half. Do you buy into that half? Do you buy into the second half, or the previous year? It’s all about who you think he really is.
    Projection systems are going to estimate him to be sub 2 WAR, which is a below average starter. For reference, Dansby was worth 1.9 this year and Suzuki a perfect 2.0.

    It is telling that the team declined to submit a qualifying offer to him, which was 17.6 Million this year. I wouldn’t hate him back on a 1 year stopgap contract, but I’d hope that would be after trying to upgrade the spot via trade and finding some pitching help.

    He's really been pretty good all 4 years in Atlanta though. That's why I posted his 4 year averages.

    He's not a superstar, but he adds a lot of value to the lineup. Sometimes WAR gives a good accounting of value but 173 hits, 39 doubles, a .360 on base average and 675 plate appearances on average over his time with The Braves gives a pretty full accounting. If every spot in the lineup gave you those numbers you'd score a lot of runs.

    Well with a low homer total and below average base running we would probably score close to the league average in runs. Again that’s what WRC+ and wOBA are good for, telling us the amount of runs your at bats give us. Nicks 4 year average WRC+ is probably about 100 which is the league average. That doesn’t make him a bad or good hitter it makes him an average hitter, at least over this 4 year sample size, who gets his value with a good OBP and poor power numbers. Again he was better than average last year.

    A team that scores the league average in runs will win a lot of games with above average pitching and defense.

    As much as I loved nick this year, I guess I’m just one of the guys who doesn’t buy into him repeating it.

    If you get on base at a high rate and average around 60 extra base hits, you'll be a very valuable hitter.
    It would be great if you had 8 #3 type hitters and if you have a weak lineup overall, you need more hrs from somewhere. The math works when you have a lot of good contact hitters to keep moving around the bases though.
    During the height of the roid era The Yankees dominated without any big bashers because they were loaded with excellent contact hitters.

    I mean, I’ll buy that premise to an extent. If you want to show me that math I’d like to see it. Regardless we don’t have a team like that though.

  • Options
    WCDawgWCDawg Posts: 17,293 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @Bigcalidawg said:
    I hope we leave the team in tact. Far as I’m concerned, Enciarte and Flaherty are the only guys I wouldpart with. I’m sure the cheap free agents we picked up are back on the block.

    Ronnie and Nick are winning hitters. We can put Ronnie in Center and platoon Austin and somebody else in left. We don’t have much in the minors until Pache, and his hitting may never develop.

    We had a home run stick, but sent him back to the Dodgers. We need somebody who can hit .280 and 20 homers in a platoon role.

    One question I have is “Who would be better in left, Johan, or Austin?”

    But nick had a really bad second half and playoffs, and was really bad the previous 3 years he was here. That first half came out of nowhere and Projections are going to think he will regress.

    Also even in enciartes down year he was better than nick by 0.3 WAR. Ender is just a really gifted outfielder and gets a lot of value there. So lol at saying bring back neck and dump ender.

    https://www.fangraphs.com/teams/braves

    Markakis has averaged 39 doubles, 173 hits and a .360 on base percentage over his 4 seasons in Atlanta. He's also averaged around 675 plate appearances, that is a huge consideration.
    If your lineup can get on base at a good rate, get in scoring position and knock in base runners with a lot of doubles, you'll score a lot of runs.

    I mean he was good last year, as in a top 80 position player in the MLB at 2.6 WAR. And he was not good for like 4 years before this year. And his career year this year was really lifted by an out of his mind first half. Do you buy into that half? Do you buy into the second half, or the previous year? It’s all about who you think he really is.
    Projection systems are going to estimate him to be sub 2 WAR, which is a below average starter. For reference, Dansby was worth 1.9 this year and Suzuki a perfect 2.0.

    It is telling that the team declined to submit a qualifying offer to him, which was 17.6 Million this year. I wouldn’t hate him back on a 1 year stopgap contract, but I’d hope that would be after trying to upgrade the spot via trade and finding some pitching help.

    He's really been pretty good all 4 years in Atlanta though. That's why I posted his 4 year averages.

    He's not a superstar, but he adds a lot of value to the lineup. Sometimes WAR gives a good accounting of value but 173 hits, 39 doubles, a .360 on base average and 675 plate appearances on average over his time with The Braves gives a pretty full accounting. If every spot in the lineup gave you those numbers you'd score a lot of runs.

    Well with a low homer total and below average base running we would probably score close to the league average in runs. Again that’s what WRC+ and wOBA are good for, telling us the amount of runs your at bats give us. Nicks 4 year average WRC+ is probably about 100 which is the league average. That doesn’t make him a bad or good hitter it makes him an average hitter, at least over this 4 year sample size, who gets his value with a good OBP and poor power numbers. Again he was better than average last year.

    A team that scores the league average in runs will win a lot of games with above average pitching and defense.

    As much as I loved nick this year, I guess I’m just one of the guys who doesn’t buy into him repeating it.

    If you get on base at a high rate and average around 60 extra base hits, you'll be a very valuable hitter.
    It would be great if you had 8 #3 type hitters and if you have a weak lineup overall, you need more hrs from somewhere. The math works when you have a lot of good contact hitters to keep moving around the bases though.
    During the height of the roid era The Yankees dominated without any big bashers because they were loaded with excellent contact hitters.

    I mean, I’ll buy that premise to an extent. If you want to show me that math I’d like to see it. Regardless we don’t have a team like that though.

    2018 team stats

    Hits - 2nd NL
    Doubles - 2nd NL
    Total Bases - 4th NL
    OBP - 5th NL
    Runs - 5th NL

    We have that kind of lineup. We just need to repeat close to those numbers plus add another really good bat.

  • Options
    KirbstomperKirbstomper Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate
    edited October 2018

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @Bigcalidawg said:
    I hope we leave the team in tact. Far as I’m concerned, Enciarte and Flaherty are the only guys I wouldpart with. I’m sure the cheap free agents we picked up are back on the block.

    Ronnie and Nick are winning hitters. We can put Ronnie in Center and platoon Austin and somebody else in left. We don’t have much in the minors until Pache, and his hitting may never develop.

    We had a home run stick, but sent him back to the Dodgers. We need somebody who can hit .280 and 20 homers in a platoon role.

    One question I have is “Who would be better in left, Johan, or Austin?”

    But nick had a really bad second half and playoffs, and was really bad the previous 3 years he was here. That first half came out of nowhere and Projections are going to think he will regress.

    Also even in enciartes down year he was better than nick by 0.3 WAR. Ender is just a really gifted outfielder and gets a lot of value there. So lol at saying bring back neck and dump ender.

    https://www.fangraphs.com/teams/braves

    Markakis has averaged 39 doubles, 173 hits and a .360 on base percentage over his 4 seasons in Atlanta. He's also averaged around 675 plate appearances, that is a huge consideration.
    If your lineup can get on base at a good rate, get in scoring position and knock in base runners with a lot of doubles, you'll score a lot of runs.

    I mean he was good last year, as in a top 80 position player in the MLB at 2.6 WAR. And he was not good for like 4 years before this year. And his career year this year was really lifted by an out of his mind first half. Do you buy into that half? Do you buy into the second half, or the previous year? It’s all about who you think he really is.
    Projection systems are going to estimate him to be sub 2 WAR, which is a below average starter. For reference, Dansby was worth 1.9 this year and Suzuki a perfect 2.0.

    It is telling that the team declined to submit a qualifying offer to him, which was 17.6 Million this year. I wouldn’t hate him back on a 1 year stopgap contract, but I’d hope that would be after trying to upgrade the spot via trade and finding some pitching help.

    He's really been pretty good all 4 years in Atlanta though. That's why I posted his 4 year averages.

    He's not a superstar, but he adds a lot of value to the lineup. Sometimes WAR gives a good accounting of value but 173 hits, 39 doubles, a .360 on base average and 675 plate appearances on average over his time with The Braves gives a pretty full accounting. If every spot in the lineup gave you those numbers you'd score a lot of runs.

    Well with a low homer total and below average base running we would probably score close to the league average in runs. Again that’s what WRC+ and wOBA are good for, telling us the amount of runs your at bats give us. Nicks 4 year average WRC+ is probably about 100 which is the league average. That doesn’t make him a bad or good hitter it makes him an average hitter, at least over this 4 year sample size, who gets his value with a good OBP and poor power numbers. Again he was better than average last year.

    A team that scores the league average in runs will win a lot of games with above average pitching and defense.

    As much as I loved nick this year, I guess I’m just one of the guys who doesn’t buy into him repeating it.

    If you get on base at a high rate and average around 60 extra base hits, you'll be a very valuable hitter.
    It would be great if you had 8 #3 type hitters and if you have a weak lineup overall, you need more hrs from somewhere. The math works when you have a lot of good contact hitters to keep moving around the bases though.
    During the height of the roid era The Yankees dominated without any big bashers because they were loaded with excellent contact hitters.

    I mean, I’ll buy that premise to an extent. If you want to show me that math I’d like to see it. Regardless we don’t have a team like that though.

    2018 team stats

    Hits - 2nd NL
    Doubles - 2nd NL
    Total Bases - 4th NL
    OBP - 5th NL
    Runs - 5th NL

    We have that kind of lineup. We just need to repeat close to those numbers plus add another really good bat.

    Hey maybe we are closer to Nick clones as a team than I thought.

    But that is counter evidence to your point. If having more hits and doubles was an optimal combo for runs than you’d be higher than 5th in runs with the number 2 hits a doubles team. This basically shows you need more power....

    At best this is just statistical noise, at worst it’s a case against a team of markakis clones.

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    WCDawgWCDawg Posts: 17,293 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:

    @Bigcalidawg said:
    I hope we leave the team in tact. Far as I’m concerned, Enciarte and Flaherty are the only guys I wouldpart with. I’m sure the cheap free agents we picked up are back on the block.

    Ronnie and Nick are winning hitters. We can put Ronnie in Center and platoon Austin and somebody else in left. We don’t have much in the minors until Pache, and his hitting may never develop.

    We had a home run stick, but sent him back to the Dodgers. We need somebody who can hit .280 and 20 homers in a platoon role.

    One question I have is “Who would be better in left, Johan, or Austin?”

    But nick had a really bad second half and playoffs, and was really bad the previous 3 years he was here. That first half came out of nowhere and Projections are going to think he will regress.

    Also even in enciartes down year he was better than nick by 0.3 WAR. Ender is just a really gifted outfielder and gets a lot of value there. So lol at saying bring back neck and dump ender.

    https://www.fangraphs.com/teams/braves

    Markakis has averaged 39 doubles, 173 hits and a .360 on base percentage over his 4 seasons in Atlanta. He's also averaged around 675 plate appearances, that is a huge consideration.
    If your lineup can get on base at a good rate, get in scoring position and knock in base runners with a lot of doubles, you'll score a lot of runs.

    I mean he was good last year, as in a top 80 position player in the MLB at 2.6 WAR. And he was not good for like 4 years before this year. And his career year this year was really lifted by an out of his mind first half. Do you buy into that half? Do you buy into the second half, or the previous year? It’s all about who you think he really is.
    Projection systems are going to estimate him to be sub 2 WAR, which is a below average starter. For reference, Dansby was worth 1.9 this year and Suzuki a perfect 2.0.

    It is telling that the team declined to submit a qualifying offer to him, which was 17.6 Million this year. I wouldn’t hate him back on a 1 year stopgap contract, but I’d hope that would be after trying to upgrade the spot via trade and finding some pitching help.

    He's really been pretty good all 4 years in Atlanta though. That's why I posted his 4 year averages.

    He's not a superstar, but he adds a lot of value to the lineup. Sometimes WAR gives a good accounting of value but 173 hits, 39 doubles, a .360 on base average and 675 plate appearances on average over his time with The Braves gives a pretty full accounting. If every spot in the lineup gave you those numbers you'd score a lot of runs.

    Well with a low homer total and below average base running we would probably score close to the league average in runs. Again that’s what WRC+ and wOBA are good for, telling us the amount of runs your at bats give us. Nicks 4 year average WRC+ is probably about 100 which is the league average. That doesn’t make him a bad or good hitter it makes him an average hitter, at least over this 4 year sample size, who gets his value with a good OBP and poor power numbers. Again he was better than average last year.

    A team that scores the league average in runs will win a lot of games with above average pitching and defense.

    As much as I loved nick this year, I guess I’m just one of the guys who doesn’t buy into him repeating it.

    If you get on base at a high rate and average around 60 extra base hits, you'll be a very valuable hitter.
    It would be great if you had 8 #3 type hitters and if you have a weak lineup overall, you need more hrs from somewhere. The math works when you have a lot of good contact hitters to keep moving around the bases though.
    During the height of the roid era The Yankees dominated without any big bashers because they were loaded with excellent contact hitters.

    I mean, I’ll buy that premise to an extent. If you want to show me that math I’d like to see it. Regardless we don’t have a team like that though.

    2018 team stats

    Hits - 2nd NL
    Doubles - 2nd NL
    Total Bases - 4th NL
    OBP - 5th NL
    Runs - 5th NL

    We have that kind of lineup. We just need to repeat close to those numbers plus add another really good bat.

    Hey maybe we are closer to Nick clones as a team than I thought.

    But that is counter evidence to your point. If having more hits and doubles was an optimal combo for runs than you’d be higher than 5th in runs with the number 2 hits a doubles team. This basically shows you need more power....

    At best this is just statistical noise, at worst it’s a case against a team of markakis clones.

    That's a bit of a stretch, but of course HRs are good. We have 4 guys who are elite doubles hitters, not many if any teams have 4 top HR hitters.

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    TNDawg71TNDawg71 Posts: 2,222 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    I like Markakis and bringing him back would be fine, but history shows expecting a mid 30s players to repeat an outlier season is foolish. There definitely has to be a plan to replace him, sooner than later.

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    WCDawgWCDawg Posts: 17,293 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @TNDawg71 said:
    I like Markakis and bringing him back would be fine, but history shows expecting a mid 30s players to repeat an outlier season is foolish. There definitely has to be a plan to replace him, sooner than later.

    2018 was not an outlier year. His hrs were up a bit, but that is true all over MLB, the ball is juiced.

    His hits, doubles and OBP have been pretty consistent throughout his 4 years in Atlanta. He also has zero injury concerns. I wouldn't be at all afraid of giving him a solid 2 or 3 year deal.

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    kelly_bkelly_b Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    I don't know about a 1 starter, but a true set-up man, closer plus some reliable power would make me happy.

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    KirbstomperKirbstomper Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @WCDawg You have to face the facts that doubles and OBP are half the story, where the other half is not kind to nick. He defends poorly, and doesnt hit for much power.

    I mean in 2017 he hit .275 with 39 doubles and an OBP of .354. Those numbers are good but he only had 8 homers, with an extra juiced ball in 2017, and this made him 6% below average offensively. He also had his worst defensive season ever. He accrued only 0.5 WAR in 670 plate appearances. That’s awful. I hope this convinces you that average OBP and doubles are an incomplete picture of a player.

    So yeah he was pretty good this year but it’s hard to buy that he will be good again next year, much less 3 more years. Maybe he surprises me, I hope he does because I like him.

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    WCDawgWCDawg Posts: 17,293 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate
    edited October 2018

    @Kirbstomper said:
    @WCDawg You have to face the facts that doubles and OBP are half the story, where the other half is not kind to nick. He defends poorly, and doesnt hit for much power.

    I mean in 2017 he hit .275 with 39 doubles and an OBP of .354. Those numbers are good but he only had 8 homers, with an extra juiced ball in 2017, and this made him 6% below average offensively. He also had his worst defensive season ever. He accrued only 0.5 WAR in 670 plate appearances. That’s awful. I hope this convinces you that average OBP and doubles are an incomplete picture of a player.

    So yeah he was pretty good this year but it’s hard to buy that he will be good again next year, much less 3 more years. Maybe he surprises me, I hope he does because I like him.

    Doubles are power numbers, not as much as Hrs, but they are far more valuable than singles.
    Look at total bases as well. If you're reducing baseball to mathematic purity it's a game of 27 outs in increments of 3 where the object is to have enough total bases within those increments of 3 outs to score runs. Markakis has averaged around 253 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a lot of advancing toward home plate. If you have a lineup with guys who have a lot of total bases, you're going to score a lot of runs.

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    TNDawg71TNDawg71 Posts: 2,222 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    In the history of the game, the only time age didn't win was during the steroid era.

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    KirbstomperKirbstomper Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    @WCDawg said:

    @Kirbstomper said:
    @WCDawg You have to face the facts that doubles and OBP are half the story, where the other half is not kind to nick. He defends poorly, and doesnt hit for much power.

    I mean in 2017 he hit .275 with 39 doubles and an OBP of .354. Those numbers are good but he only had 8 homers, with an extra juiced ball in 2017, and this made him 6% below average offensively. He also had his worst defensive season ever. He accrued only 0.5 WAR in 670 plate appearances. That’s awful. I hope this convinces you that average OBP and doubles are an incomplete picture of a player.

    So yeah he was pretty good this year but it’s hard to buy that he will be good again next year, much less 3 more years. Maybe he surprises me, I hope he does because I like him.

    Doubles are power numbers, not as much as Hrs, but they are far more valuable than singles.
    Look at total bases as well. If you're reducing baseball to mathematic purity it's a game of 27 outs in increments of 3 where the object is to have enough total bases within those increments of 3 outs to score runs. Markakis has averaged around 253 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a lot of advancing toward home plate. If you have a lineup with guys who have a lot of total bases, you're going to score a lot of runs.

    To be honest you should look into how these numbers hold up against other people, because I feel like you don't understand that looks in context. Just saying he has 253 total bases is completely meaningless without context. You weren't even right by the way, he averaged 242.5 total bases per year over the last 4 years. If we divide this by his average at bats per year thats good for a 0.40 slugging percentage WHICH IS AN ENTIRE STANDARD DEVIATION BELOW THE 2018 MEAN. If you think Nick gets more total bases per at bat than the majority of the league you are wrong.

    In 2018, which is again his best year since 2011 offensively, Nick had a slugging percentage of 0.44. Hooray for his career year! But still this was only good for 69'th in the league. The league average among all qualified players was 0.447. Again, in terms of total bases, Nick is below average. Even in a career year. All he did better than average this year was get an base, with the 29'th best OBP. This is a valued commodity and why he was 14% above average by WRC+.

    So we can revise your statement to "Markakis has averaged around 242.5 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a low amount of advancing toward home plate and if this stat matters that much we should try to upgrade right field".

    I am sure your next comment will either be something about how getting on base is now the thing you value the most. But if you want to talk total aggregate offensive production stats you should really just look at the WRC+ stat in the future. Stats people are smart man you should probably trust them.

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    AnotherDawgAnotherDawg Posts: 6,761 ✭✭✭✭✭ Graduate

    I normally don't enjoy never ending back and forth arguments on DN, but this one has been entertaining. Having heard both sides, King Solomon has concluded that the Braves should sign Markakis to a long-term big-money deal, then take him out back and shoot him.

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