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Atlanta Braves

Dawg4Life912

If we don't end up signing a big time outfielder m, is like to see the braves give Austin Riley a shot in one of the corner spots and keep Comargo at third. I've yet to hear any type of rumor like this, not sure if he's capable or not. But I like thought

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WCDawg

@Kirbstomper said:

@WCDawg said:

@Kirbstomper said:
@WCDawg You have to face the facts that doubles and OBP are half the story, where the other half is not kind to nick. He defends poorly, and doesnt hit for much power.

I mean in 2017 he hit .275 with 39 doubles and an OBP of .354. Those numbers are good but he only had 8 homers, with an extra juiced ball in 2017, and this made him 6% below average offensively. He also had his worst defensive season ever. He accrued only 0.5 WAR in 670 plate appearances. That’s awful. I hope this convinces you that average OBP and doubles are an incomplete picture of a player.

So yeah he was pretty good this year but it’s hard to buy that he will be good again next year, much less 3 more years. Maybe he surprises me, I hope he does because I like him.

Doubles are power numbers, not as much as Hrs, but they are far more valuable than singles.
Look at total bases as well. If you're reducing baseball to mathematic purity it's a game of 27 outs in increments of 3 where the object is to have enough total bases within those increments of 3 outs to score runs. Markakis has averaged around 253 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a lot of advancing toward home plate. If you have a lineup with guys who have a lot of total bases, you're going to score a lot of runs.

To be honest you should look into how these numbers hold up against other people, because I feel like you don't understand that looks in context. Just saying he has 253 total bases is completely meaningless without context. You weren't even right by the way, he averaged 242.5 total bases per year over the last 4 years. If we divide this by his average at bats per year thats good for a 0.40 slugging percentage WHICH IS AN ENTIRE STANDARD DEVIATION BELOW THE 2018 MEAN. If you think Nick gets more total bases per at bat than the majority of the league you are wrong.

In 2018, which is again his best year since 2011 offensively, Nick had a slugging percentage of 0.44. Hooray for his career year! But still this was only good for 69'th in the league. The league average among all qualified players was 0.447. Again, in terms of total bases, Nick is below average. Even in a career year. All he did better than average this year was get an base, with the 29'th best OBP. This is a valued commodity and why he was 14% above average by WRC+.

So we can revise your statement to "Markakis has averaged around 242.5 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a low amount of advancing toward home plate and if this stat matters that much we should try to upgrade right field".

I am sure your next comment will either be something about how getting on base is now the thing you value the most. But if you want to talk total aggregate offensive production stats you should really just look at the WRC+ stat in the future. Stats people are smart man you should probably trust them.

The only think that pisses me off is when a poster thinks he or she knows what I'm thinking or about to post...**** and read...please.

Total bases is an isolated stat, so is OBP, both are essential to scoring runs.

While total bases are tied to a player's number of at bats, they are like wins for a pitcher, they tell you the player showed up and got the work done.

OBP is completely isolated and gives you a per at bat quantity, but for the sake of the list below I'm only counting players who had a minimum of 300 at bats, if you don't show up, you don't help the team.

I'm going to list where Markakis rated in total bases, OBP and xtra base hits for The Braves in each of his 4 seasons with the team and the 2 NL teams in this year's NLCS over those seasons.

The Braves
2018
total bases - 3rd
OBP - T-2nd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2017
total bases - 3rd
OBP - T-2nd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2016
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 3rd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2015
total bases - 1st
OBP - T-1st
xtra base hits - 2nd

The Brewers
2018
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 3rd

2017
total bases - 4th
OBP - 3rd

2016
total bases - 4th
OBP - 4th

2015
total bases - 3rd
OBP - 1st

Dodgers
2018
total bases - 1st
OBP - 3rd

2017
total bases - 5th
OBP - T-3rd

2016
total bases - 4th
OBP - 4th

2015
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 2nd

So where is this league where Markakis's 4 year performance in these basic and essential run production producing areas not good ?

You don't fall ass backwards into a player who averages out as your 2nd most productive hitter over 4 seasons.

donm

@WCDawg said:

@TNDawg71 said:
I like Markakis and bringing him back would be fine, but history shows expecting a mid 30s players to repeat an outlier season is foolish. There definitely has to be a plan to replace him, sooner than later.

2018 was not an outlier year. His hrs were up a bit, but that is true all over MLB, the ball is juiced.

His hits, doubles and OBP have been pretty consistent throughout his 4 years in Atlanta. He also has zero injury concerns. I wouldn't be at all afraid of giving him a solid 2 or 3 year deal.

Except for his back that required surgery. He has been healthy for a couple of years in a row now, so that is becoming less of a concern for me....still a

Kirbstomper

@WCDawg said:

@Kirbstomper said:

@WCDawg said:

@Kirbstomper said:
@WCDawg You have to face the facts that doubles and OBP are half the story, where the other half is not kind to nick. He defends poorly, and doesnt hit for much power.

I mean in 2017 he hit .275 with 39 doubles and an OBP of .354. Those numbers are good but he only had 8 homers, with an extra juiced ball in 2017, and this made him 6% below average offensively. He also had his worst defensive season ever. He accrued only 0.5 WAR in 670 plate appearances. That’s awful. I hope this convinces you that average OBP and doubles are an incomplete picture of a player.

So yeah he was pretty good this year but it’s hard to buy that he will be good again next year, much less 3 more years. Maybe he surprises me, I hope he does because I like him.

Doubles are power numbers, not as much as Hrs, but they are far more valuable than singles.
Look at total bases as well. If you're reducing baseball to mathematic purity it's a game of 27 outs in increments of 3 where the object is to have enough total bases within those increments of 3 outs to score runs. Markakis has averaged around 253 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a lot of advancing toward home plate. If you have a lineup with guys who have a lot of total bases, you're going to score a lot of runs.

To be honest you should look into how these numbers hold up against other people, because I feel like you don't understand that looks in context. Just saying he has 253 total bases is completely meaningless without context. You weren't even right by the way, he averaged 242.5 total bases per year over the last 4 years. If we divide this by his average at bats per year thats good for a 0.40 slugging percentage WHICH IS AN ENTIRE STANDARD DEVIATION BELOW THE 2018 MEAN. If you think Nick gets more total bases per at bat than the majority of the league you are wrong.

In 2018, which is again his best year since 2011 offensively, Nick had a slugging percentage of 0.44. Hooray for his career year! But still this was only good for 69'th in the league. The league average among all qualified players was 0.447. Again, in terms of total bases, Nick is below average. Even in a career year. All he did better than average this year was get an base, with the 29'th best OBP. This is a valued commodity and why he was 14% above average by WRC+.

So we can revise your statement to "Markakis has averaged around 242.5 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a low amount of advancing toward home plate and if this stat matters that much we should try to upgrade right field".

I am sure your next comment will either be something about how getting on base is now the thing you value the most. But if you want to talk total aggregate offensive production stats you should really just look at the WRC+ stat in the future. Stats people are smart man you should probably trust them.

The only think that pisses me off is when a poster thinks he or she knows what I'm thinking or about to post...**** and read...please.

Total bases is an isolated stat, so is OBP, both are essential to scoring runs.

While total bases are tied to a player's number of at bats, they are like wins for a pitcher, they tell you the player showed up and got the work done.

OBP is completely isolated and gives you a per at bat quantity, but for the sake of the list below I'm only counting players who had a minimum of 300 at bats, if you don't show up, you don't help the team.

I'm going to list where Markakis rated in total bases, OBP and xtra base hits for The Braves in each of his 4 seasons with the team and the 2 NL teams in this year's NLCS over those seasons.

The Braves
2018
total bases - 3rd
OBP - T-2nd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2017
total bases - 3rd
OBP - T-2nd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2016
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 3rd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2015
total bases - 1st
OBP - T-1st
xtra base hits - 2nd

The Brewers
2018
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 3rd

2017
total bases - 4th
OBP - 3rd

2016
total bases - 4th
OBP - 4th

2015
total bases - 3rd
OBP - 1st

Dodgers
2018
total bases - 1st
OBP - 3rd

2017
total bases - 5th
OBP - T-3rd

2016
total bases - 4th
OBP - 4th

2015
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 2nd

So where is this league where Markakis's 4 year performance in these basic and essential run production producing areas not good ?

You don't fall ass backwards into a player who averages out as your 2nd most productive hitter over 4 seasons.
      

Nobody really cares about pitcher wins, at least not people who understand the relevance of pitcher wins to pitcher performance. And you're the only person I have ever seen reference total bases. It isn't even a stat you can look up, you have to manually calculate it .

So yeah total bases are going to be positively correlated with games played or at bats. Sure nick gets kudos for being healthy, and that matters. He played literally every game this year so aggregate stats are going to be skewed in his favor. Cody Bellinger also played all 162 but had 70 less at bats.

As an example this total bases stat would say Neck is a better hitter than Jesus Aguilar of the Brewers which I am sure even you wouldn't agree with (he has a whole 0.1 better slugging percentage). Aguilar was healthy all season as far as I know, he just took some games off. And the games he took off you can conservatively assume replacement level people replaced him and that position would have had more total bases. It isn't like if neck doesn't play we put a scarecrow out there.

Also if nicks on the dodgers he doesn’t play all 162 games! Last year he would probably not have even been able to crack their roster, teams that are rebuilding are much more willing to give away at bats though. Teams usually rest their guys and take advantage of depth and splits. It isn't a fair comparison. Like saying Elijah Holyfield doesn't have near the rushing yards of Travyeon Williams, so obviously Travyeon is a better rusher.

I like nick but seriously he’s not a top tier hitter man. If you haven't bee convinced yet you probably never will be though, in which case I don't really care to hash it out anymore.

Kirbstomper

And sorry if I was a bit of an ass, it’s been a long rough day

donm

If you had a team of nicks would the Braves have scored more run this year? He drove in a lot of runs, scored a lot of runs and hit well with 2 strikes.

Kirbstomper

@donm said:
If you had a team of nicks would the Braves have scored more run this year? He drove in a lot of runs, scored a lot of runs and hit well with 2 strikes.

Yeah the analytics would say so

WCDawg

@Kirbstomper said:
@WCDawg said:

@Kirbstomper said:

@WCDawg said:

@Kirbstomper said:
@WCDawg You have to face the facts that doubles and OBP are half the story, where the other half is not kind to nick. He defends poorly, and doesnt hit for much power.

I mean in 2017 he hit .275 with 39 doubles and an OBP of .354. Those numbers are good but he only had 8 homers, with an extra juiced ball in 2017, and this made him 6% below average offensively. He also had his worst defensive season ever. He accrued only 0.5 WAR in 670 plate appearances. That’s awful. I hope this convinces you that average OBP and doubles are an incomplete picture of a player.

So yeah he was pretty good this year but it’s hard to buy that he will be good again next year, much less 3 more years. Maybe he surprises me, I hope he does because I like him.

Doubles are power numbers, not as much as Hrs, but they are far more valuable than singles.
Look at total bases as well. If you're reducing baseball to mathematic purity it's a game of 27 outs in increments of 3 where the object is to have enough total bases within those increments of 3 outs to score runs. Markakis has averaged around 253 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a lot of advancing toward home plate. If you have a lineup with guys who have a lot of total bases, you're going to score a lot of runs.

To be honest you should look into how these numbers hold up against other people, because I feel like you don't understand that looks in context. Just saying he has 253 total bases is completely meaningless without context. You weren't even right by the way, he averaged 242.5 total bases per year over the last 4 years. If we divide this by his average at bats per year thats good for a 0.40 slugging percentage WHICH IS AN ENTIRE STANDARD DEVIATION BELOW THE 2018 MEAN. If you think Nick gets more total bases per at bat than the majority of the league you are wrong.

In 2018, which is again his best year since 2011 offensively, Nick had a slugging percentage of 0.44. Hooray for his career year! But still this was only good for 69'th in the league. The league average among all qualified players was 0.447. Again, in terms of total bases, Nick is below average. Even in a career year. All he did better than average this year was get an base, with the 29'th best OBP. This is a valued commodity and why he was 14% above average by WRC+.

So we can revise your statement to "Markakis has averaged around 242.5 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a low amount of advancing toward home plate and if this stat matters that much we should try to upgrade right field".

I am sure your next comment will either be something about how getting on base is now the thing you value the most. But if you want to talk total aggregate offensive production stats you should really just look at the WRC+ stat in the future. Stats people are smart man you should probably trust them.

The only think that pisses me off is when a poster thinks he or she knows what I'm thinking or about to post...**** and read...please.

Total bases is an isolated stat, so is OBP, both are essential to scoring runs.

While total bases are tied to a player's number of at bats, they are like wins for a pitcher, they tell you the player showed up and got the work done.

OBP is completely isolated and gives you a per at bat quantity, but for the sake of the list below I'm only counting players who had a minimum of 300 at bats, if you don't show up, you don't help the team.

I'm going to list where Markakis rated in total bases, OBP and xtra base hits for The Braves in each of his 4 seasons with the team and the 2 NL teams in this year's NLCS over those seasons.

The Braves
2018
total bases - 3rd
OBP - T-2nd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2017
total bases - 3rd
OBP - T-2nd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2016
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 3rd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2015
total bases - 1st
OBP - T-1st
xtra base hits - 2nd

The Brewers
2018
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 3rd

2017
total bases - 4th
OBP - 3rd

2016
total bases - 4th
OBP - 4th

2015
total bases - 3rd
OBP - 1st

Dodgers
2018
total bases - 1st
OBP - 3rd

2017
total bases - 5th
OBP - T-3rd

2016
total bases - 4th
OBP - 4th

2015
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 2nd

So where is this league where Markakis's 4 year performance in these basic and essential run production producing areas not good ?

You don't fall ass backwards into a player who averages out as your 2nd most productive hitter over 4 seasons.
      
Nobody really cares about pitcher wins, at least not people who understand the relevance of pitcher wins to pitcher performance. And you're the only person I have ever seen reference total bases. It isn't even a stat you can look up, you have to manually calculate it .

So yeah total bases are going to be positively correlated with games played or at bats. Sure nick gets kudos for being healthy, and that matters. He played literally every game this year so aggregate stats are going to be skewed in his favor. Cody Bellinger also played all 162 but had 70 less at bats.

As an example this total bases stat would say Neck is a better hitter than Jesus Aguilar of the Brewers which I am sure even you wouldn't agree with (he has a whole 0.1 better slugging percentage). Aguilar was healthy all season as far as I know, he just took some games off. And the games he took off you can conservatively assume replacement level people replaced him and that position would have had more total bases. It isn't like if neck doesn't play we put a scarecrow out there.

Also if nicks on the dodgers he doesn’t play all 162 games! Last year he would probably not have even been able to crack their roster, teams that are rebuilding are much more willing to give away at bats though. Teams usually rest their guys and take advantage of depth and splits. It isn't a fair comparison. Like saying Elijah Holyfield doesn't have near the rushing yards of Travyeon Williams, so obviously Travyeon is a better rusher.

I like nick but seriously he’s not a top tier hitter man. If you haven't bee convinced yet you probably never will be though, in which case I don't really care to hash it out anymore.

I never said he's a top tier hitter. My case is we're likely considerably better with him in 2019 and 2020 than without him.
Of course price will be a consideration Liberty Media holding the purse strings.

Kirbstomper

@WCDawg said:
@Kirbstomper said:
@WCDawg said:

@Kirbstomper said:

@WCDawg said:

@Kirbstomper said:
@WCDawg You have to face the facts that doubles and OBP are half the story, where the other half is not kind to nick. He defends poorly, and doesnt hit for much power.

I mean in 2017 he hit .275 with 39 doubles and an OBP of .354. Those numbers are good but he only had 8 homers, with an extra juiced ball in 2017, and this made him 6% below average offensively. He also had his worst defensive season ever. He accrued only 0.5 WAR in 670 plate appearances. That’s awful. I hope this convinces you that average OBP and doubles are an incomplete picture of a player.

So yeah he was pretty good this year but it’s hard to buy that he will be good again next year, much less 3 more years. Maybe he surprises me, I hope he does because I like him.

Doubles are power numbers, not as much as Hrs, but they are far more valuable than singles.
Look at total bases as well. If you're reducing baseball to mathematic purity it's a game of 27 outs in increments of 3 where the object is to have enough total bases within those increments of 3 outs to score runs. Markakis has averaged around 253 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a lot of advancing toward home plate. If you have a lineup with guys who have a lot of total bases, you're going to score a lot of runs.

To be honest you should look into how these numbers hold up against other people, because I feel like you don't understand that looks in context. Just saying he has 253 total bases is completely meaningless without context. You weren't even right by the way, he averaged 242.5 total bases per year over the last 4 years. If we divide this by his average at bats per year thats good for a 0.40 slugging percentage WHICH IS AN ENTIRE STANDARD DEVIATION BELOW THE 2018 MEAN. If you think Nick gets more total bases per at bat than the majority of the league you are wrong.

In 2018, which is again his best year since 2011 offensively, Nick had a slugging percentage of 0.44. Hooray for his career year! But still this was only good for 69'th in the league. The league average among all qualified players was 0.447. Again, in terms of total bases, Nick is below average. Even in a career year. All he did better than average this year was get an base, with the 29'th best OBP. This is a valued commodity and why he was 14% above average by WRC+.

So we can revise your statement to "Markakis has averaged around 242.5 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a low amount of advancing toward home plate and if this stat matters that much we should try to upgrade right field".

I am sure your next comment will either be something about how getting on base is now the thing you value the most. But if you want to talk total aggregate offensive production stats you should really just look at the WRC+ stat in the future. Stats people are smart man you should probably trust them.

The only think that pisses me off is when a poster thinks he or she knows what I'm thinking or about to post...**** and read...please.

Total bases is an isolated stat, so is OBP, both are essential to scoring runs.

While total bases are tied to a player's number of at bats, they are like wins for a pitcher, they tell you the player showed up and got the work done.

OBP is completely isolated and gives you a per at bat quantity, but for the sake of the list below I'm only counting players who had a minimum of 300 at bats, if you don't show up, you don't help the team.

I'm going to list where Markakis rated in total bases, OBP and xtra base hits for The Braves in each of his 4 seasons with the team and the 2 NL teams in this year's NLCS over those seasons.

The Braves
2018
total bases - 3rd
OBP - T-2nd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2017
total bases - 3rd
OBP - T-2nd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2016
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 3rd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2015
total bases - 1st
OBP - T-1st
xtra base hits - 2nd

The Brewers
2018
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 3rd

2017
total bases - 4th
OBP - 3rd

2016
total bases - 4th
OBP - 4th

2015
total bases - 3rd
OBP - 1st

Dodgers
2018
total bases - 1st
OBP - 3rd

2017
total bases - 5th
OBP - T-3rd

2016
total bases - 4th
OBP - 4th

2015
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 2nd

So where is this league where Markakis's 4 year performance in these basic and essential run production producing areas not good ?

You don't fall ass backwards into a player who averages out as your 2nd most productive hitter over 4 seasons.
      
Nobody really cares about pitcher wins, at least not people who understand the relevance of pitcher wins to pitcher performance. And you're the only person I have ever seen reference total bases. It isn't even a stat you can look up, you have to manually calculate it .

So yeah total bases are going to be positively correlated with games played or at bats. Sure nick gets kudos for being healthy, and that matters. He played literally every game this year so aggregate stats are going to be skewed in his favor. Cody Bellinger also played all 162 but had 70 less at bats.

As an example this total bases stat would say Neck is a better hitter than Jesus Aguilar of the Brewers which I am sure even you wouldn't agree with (he has a whole 0.1 better slugging percentage). Aguilar was healthy all season as far as I know, he just took some games off. And the games he took off you can conservatively assume replacement level people replaced him and that position would have had more total bases. It isn't like if neck doesn't play we put a scarecrow out there.

Also if nicks on the dodgers he doesn’t play all 162 games! Last year he would probably not have even been able to crack their roster, teams that are rebuilding are much more willing to give away at bats though. Teams usually rest their guys and take advantage of depth and splits. It isn't a fair comparison. Like saying Elijah Holyfield doesn't have near the rushing yards of Travyeon Williams, so obviously Travyeon is a better rusher.

I like nick but seriously he’s not a top tier hitter man. If you haven't bee convinced yet you probably never will be though, in which case I don't really care to hash it out anymore.
I never said he's a top tier hitter. My case is we're likely considerably better with him in 2019 and 2020 than without him.
Of course price will be a consideration Liberty Media holding the purse strings.

Oh maybe I misinterpreted your position. I agree they’re better with him than with Preston tucker but I’d still rather them get a big time corner outfielder if it’s out there.

Nick will be really cheap, if they don’t bring him back it won’t be because of money

WCDawg

@Kirbstomper said:
@WCDawg said:

@Kirbstomper said:

@WCDawg said:

@Kirbstomper said:
@WCDawg You have to face the facts that doubles and OBP are half the story, where the other half is not kind to nick. He defends poorly, and doesnt hit for much power.

I mean in 2017 he hit .275 with 39 doubles and an OBP of .354. Those numbers are good but he only had 8 homers, with an extra juiced ball in 2017, and this made him 6% below average offensively. He also had his worst defensive season ever. He accrued only 0.5 WAR in 670 plate appearances. That’s awful. I hope this convinces you that average OBP and doubles are an incomplete picture of a player.

So yeah he was pretty good this year but it’s hard to buy that he will be good again next year, much less 3 more years. Maybe he surprises me, I hope he does because I like him.

Doubles are power numbers, not as much as Hrs, but they are far more valuable than singles.
Look at total bases as well. If you're reducing baseball to mathematic purity it's a game of 27 outs in increments of 3 where the object is to have enough total bases within those increments of 3 outs to score runs. Markakis has averaged around 253 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a lot of advancing toward home plate. If you have a lineup with guys who have a lot of total bases, you're going to score a lot of runs.

To be honest you should look into how these numbers hold up against other people, because I feel like you don't understand that looks in context. Just saying he has 253 total bases is completely meaningless without context. You weren't even right by the way, he averaged 242.5 total bases per year over the last 4 years. If we divide this by his average at bats per year thats good for a 0.40 slugging percentage WHICH IS AN ENTIRE STANDARD DEVIATION BELOW THE 2018 MEAN. If you think Nick gets more total bases per at bat than the majority of the league you are wrong.

In 2018, which is again his best year since 2011 offensively, Nick had a slugging percentage of 0.44. Hooray for his career year! But still this was only good for 69'th in the league. The league average among all qualified players was 0.447. Again, in terms of total bases, Nick is below average. Even in a career year. All he did better than average this year was get an base, with the 29'th best OBP. This is a valued commodity and why he was 14% above average by WRC+.

So we can revise your statement to "Markakis has averaged around 242.5 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a low amount of advancing toward home plate and if this stat matters that much we should try to upgrade right field".

I am sure your next comment will either be something about how getting on base is now the thing you value the most. But if you want to talk total aggregate offensive production stats you should really just look at the WRC+ stat in the future. Stats people are smart man you should probably trust them.

The only think that pisses me off is when a poster thinks he or she knows what I'm thinking or about to post...**** and read...please.

Total bases is an isolated stat, so is OBP, both are essential to scoring runs.

While total bases are tied to a player's number of at bats, they are like wins for a pitcher, they tell you the player showed up and got the work done.

OBP is completely isolated and gives you a per at bat quantity, but for the sake of the list below I'm only counting players who had a minimum of 300 at bats, if you don't show up, you don't help the team.

I'm going to list where Markakis rated in total bases, OBP and xtra base hits for The Braves in each of his 4 seasons with the team and the 2 NL teams in this year's NLCS over those seasons.

The Braves
2018
total bases - 3rd
OBP - T-2nd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2017
total bases - 3rd
OBP - T-2nd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2016
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 3rd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2015
total bases - 1st
OBP - T-1st
xtra base hits - 2nd

The Brewers
2018
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 3rd

2017
total bases - 4th
OBP - 3rd

2016
total bases - 4th
OBP - 4th

2015
total bases - 3rd
OBP - 1st

Dodgers
2018
total bases - 1st
OBP - 3rd

2017
total bases - 5th
OBP - T-3rd

2016
total bases - 4th
OBP - 4th

2015
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 2nd

So where is this league where Markakis's 4 year performance in these basic and essential run production producing areas not good ?

You don't fall ass backwards into a player who averages out as your 2nd most productive hitter over 4 seasons.
      
Nobody really cares about pitcher wins, at least not people who understand the relevance of pitcher wins to pitcher performance. And you're the only person I have ever seen reference total bases. It isn't even a stat you can look up, you have to manually calculate it .

So yeah total bases are going to be positively correlated with games played or at bats. Sure nick gets kudos for being healthy, and that matters. He played literally every game this year so aggregate stats are going to be skewed in his favor. Cody Bellinger also played all 162 but had 70 less at bats.

As an example this total bases stat would say Neck is a better hitter than Jesus Aguilar of the Brewers which I am sure even you wouldn't agree with (he has a whole 0.1 better slugging percentage). Aguilar was healthy all season as far as I know, he just took some games off. And the games he took off you can conservatively assume replacement level people replaced him and that position would have had more total bases. It isn't like if neck doesn't play we put a scarecrow out there.

Also if nicks on the dodgers he doesn’t play all 162 games! Last year he would probably not have even been able to crack their roster, teams that are rebuilding are much more willing to give away at bats though. Teams usually rest their guys and take advantage of depth and splits. It isn't a fair comparison. Like saying Elijah Holyfield doesn't have near the rushing yards of Travyeon Williams, so obviously Travyeon is a better rusher.

I like nick but seriously he’s not a top tier hitter man. If you haven't bee convinced yet you probably never will be though, in which case I don't really care to hash it out anymore.

Are you kidding ? Total bases is listed on any basic profile of every player who ever played MLB.
Hank Aaron has 11.8% more career total bases than anybody else in history, it's one of my favorite stats. You must have that stat mixed up with something else.

Also Markakis would have been The Dodgers 3rd or 4th best hitter in 2017.

Kirbstomper

@WCDawg said:
@Kirbstomper said:
@WCDawg said:

@Kirbstomper said:

@WCDawg said:

@Kirbstomper said:
@WCDawg You have to face the facts that doubles and OBP are half the story, where the other half is not kind to nick. He defends poorly, and doesnt hit for much power.

I mean in 2017 he hit .275 with 39 doubles and an OBP of .354. Those numbers are good but he only had 8 homers, with an extra juiced ball in 2017, and this made him 6% below average offensively. He also had his worst defensive season ever. He accrued only 0.5 WAR in 670 plate appearances. That’s awful. I hope this convinces you that average OBP and doubles are an incomplete picture of a player.

So yeah he was pretty good this year but it’s hard to buy that he will be good again next year, much less 3 more years. Maybe he surprises me, I hope he does because I like him.

Doubles are power numbers, not as much as Hrs, but they are far more valuable than singles.
Look at total bases as well. If you're reducing baseball to mathematic purity it's a game of 27 outs in increments of 3 where the object is to have enough total bases within those increments of 3 outs to score runs. Markakis has averaged around 253 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a lot of advancing toward home plate. If you have a lineup with guys who have a lot of total bases, you're going to score a lot of runs.

To be honest you should look into how these numbers hold up against other people, because I feel like you don't understand that looks in context. Just saying he has 253 total bases is completely meaningless without context. You weren't even right by the way, he averaged 242.5 total bases per year over the last 4 years. If we divide this by his average at bats per year thats good for a 0.40 slugging percentage WHICH IS AN ENTIRE STANDARD DEVIATION BELOW THE 2018 MEAN. If you think Nick gets more total bases per at bat than the majority of the league you are wrong.

In 2018, which is again his best year since 2011 offensively, Nick had a slugging percentage of 0.44. Hooray for his career year! But still this was only good for 69'th in the league. The league average among all qualified players was 0.447. Again, in terms of total bases, Nick is below average. Even in a career year. All he did better than average this year was get an base, with the 29'th best OBP. This is a valued commodity and why he was 14% above average by WRC+.

So we can revise your statement to "Markakis has averaged around 242.5 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a low amount of advancing toward home plate and if this stat matters that much we should try to upgrade right field".

I am sure your next comment will either be something about how getting on base is now the thing you value the most. But if you want to talk total aggregate offensive production stats you should really just look at the WRC+ stat in the future. Stats people are smart man you should probably trust them.

The only think that pisses me off is when a poster thinks he or she knows what I'm thinking or about to post...**** and read...please.

Total bases is an isolated stat, so is OBP, both are essential to scoring runs.

While total bases are tied to a player's number of at bats, they are like wins for a pitcher, they tell you the player showed up and got the work done.

OBP is completely isolated and gives you a per at bat quantity, but for the sake of the list below I'm only counting players who had a minimum of 300 at bats, if you don't show up, you don't help the team.

I'm going to list where Markakis rated in total bases, OBP and xtra base hits for The Braves in each of his 4 seasons with the team and the 2 NL teams in this year's NLCS over those seasons.

The Braves
2018
total bases - 3rd
OBP - T-2nd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2017
total bases - 3rd
OBP - T-2nd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2016
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 3rd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2015
total bases - 1st
OBP - T-1st
xtra base hits - 2nd

The Brewers
2018
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 3rd

2017
total bases - 4th
OBP - 3rd

2016
total bases - 4th
OBP - 4th

2015
total bases - 3rd
OBP - 1st

Dodgers
2018
total bases - 1st
OBP - 3rd

2017
total bases - 5th
OBP - T-3rd

2016
total bases - 4th
OBP - 4th

2015
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 2nd

So where is this league where Markakis's 4 year performance in these basic and essential run production producing areas not good ?

You don't fall ass backwards into a player who averages out as your 2nd most productive hitter over 4 seasons.
      
Nobody really cares about pitcher wins, at least not people who understand the relevance of pitcher wins to pitcher performance. And you're the only person I have ever seen reference total bases. It isn't even a stat you can look up, you have to manually calculate it .

So yeah total bases are going to be positively correlated with games played or at bats. Sure nick gets kudos for being healthy, and that matters. He played literally every game this year so aggregate stats are going to be skewed in his favor. Cody Bellinger also played all 162 but had 70 less at bats.

As an example this total bases stat would say Neck is a better hitter than Jesus Aguilar of the Brewers which I am sure even you wouldn't agree with (he has a whole 0.1 better slugging percentage). Aguilar was healthy all season as far as I know, he just took some games off. And the games he took off you can conservatively assume replacement level people replaced him and that position would have had more total bases. It isn't like if neck doesn't play we put a scarecrow out there.

Also if nicks on the dodgers he doesn’t play all 162 games! Last year he would probably not have even been able to crack their roster, teams that are rebuilding are much more willing to give away at bats though. Teams usually rest their guys and take advantage of depth and splits. It isn't a fair comparison. Like saying Elijah Holyfield doesn't have near the rushing yards of Travyeon Williams, so obviously Travyeon is a better rusher.

I like nick but seriously he’s not a top tier hitter man. If you haven't bee convinced yet you probably never will be though, in which case I don't really care to hash it out anymore.
Are you kidding ? Total bases is listed on any basic profile of every player who ever played MLB.
Hank Aaron has 11.8% more career total bases than anybody else in history, it's one of my favorite stats. You must have that stat mixed up with something else.

Also Markakis would have been The Dodgers 3rd or 4th best hitter in 2017.

He would have been their tenth best hitter with over 120 ab and worst defender on their team at their position. If you are defending kakes 2017 as being good idk what to say

donm

@Kirbstomper said:
@WCDawg said:
@Kirbstomper said:
@WCDawg said:

@Kirbstomper said:

@WCDawg said:

@Kirbstomper said:
@WCDawg You have to face the facts that doubles and OBP are half the story, where the other half is not kind to nick. He defends poorly, and doesnt hit for much power.

I mean in 2017 he hit .275 with 39 doubles and an OBP of .354. Those numbers are good but he only had 8 homers, with an extra juiced ball in 2017, and this made him 6% below average offensively. He also had his worst defensive season ever. He accrued only 0.5 WAR in 670 plate appearances. That’s awful. I hope this convinces you that average OBP and doubles are an incomplete picture of a player.

So yeah he was pretty good this year but it’s hard to buy that he will be good again next year, much less 3 more years. Maybe he surprises me, I hope he does because I like him.

Doubles are power numbers, not as much as Hrs, but they are far more valuable than singles.
Look at total bases as well. If you're reducing baseball to mathematic purity it's a game of 27 outs in increments of 3 where the object is to have enough total bases within those increments of 3 outs to score runs. Markakis has averaged around 253 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a lot of advancing toward home plate. If you have a lineup with guys who have a lot of total bases, you're going to score a lot of runs.

To be honest you should look into how these numbers hold up against other people, because I feel like you don't understand that looks in context. Just saying he has 253 total bases is completely meaningless without context. You weren't even right by the way, he averaged 242.5 total bases per year over the last 4 years. If we divide this by his average at bats per year thats good for a 0.40 slugging percentage WHICH IS AN ENTIRE STANDARD DEVIATION BELOW THE 2018 MEAN. If you think Nick gets more total bases per at bat than the majority of the league you are wrong.

In 2018, which is again his best year since 2011 offensively, Nick had a slugging percentage of 0.44. Hooray for his career year! But still this was only good for 69'th in the league. The league average among all qualified players was 0.447. Again, in terms of total bases, Nick is below average. Even in a career year. All he did better than average this year was get an base, with the 29'th best OBP. This is a valued commodity and why he was 14% above average by WRC+.

So we can revise your statement to "Markakis has averaged around 242.5 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a low amount of advancing toward home plate and if this stat matters that much we should try to upgrade right field".

I am sure your next comment will either be something about how getting on base is now the thing you value the most. But if you want to talk total aggregate offensive production stats you should really just look at the WRC+ stat in the future. Stats people are smart man you should probably trust them.

The only think that pisses me off is when a poster thinks he or she knows what I'm thinking or about to post...**** and read...please.

Total bases is an isolated stat, so is OBP, both are essential to scoring runs.

While total bases are tied to a player's number of at bats, they are like wins for a pitcher, they tell you the player showed up and got the work done.

OBP is completely isolated and gives you a per at bat quantity, but for the sake of the list below I'm only counting players who had a minimum of 300 at bats, if you don't show up, you don't help the team.

I'm going to list where Markakis rated in total bases, OBP and xtra base hits for The Braves in each of his 4 seasons with the team and the 2 NL teams in this year's NLCS over those seasons.

The Braves
2018
total bases - 3rd
OBP - T-2nd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2017
total bases - 3rd
OBP - T-2nd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2016
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 3rd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2015
total bases - 1st
OBP - T-1st
xtra base hits - 2nd

The Brewers
2018
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 3rd

2017
total bases - 4th
OBP - 3rd

2016
total bases - 4th
OBP - 4th

2015
total bases - 3rd
OBP - 1st

Dodgers
2018
total bases - 1st
OBP - 3rd

2017
total bases - 5th
OBP - T-3rd

2016
total bases - 4th
OBP - 4th

2015
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 2nd

So where is this league where Markakis's 4 year performance in these basic and essential run production producing areas not good ?

You don't fall ass backwards into a player who averages out as your 2nd most productive hitter over 4 seasons.
      
Nobody really cares about pitcher wins, at least not people who understand the relevance of pitcher wins to pitcher performance. And you're the only person I have ever seen reference total bases. It isn't even a stat you can look up, you have to manually calculate it .

So yeah total bases are going to be positively correlated with games played or at bats. Sure nick gets kudos for being healthy, and that matters. He played literally every game this year so aggregate stats are going to be skewed in his favor. Cody Bellinger also played all 162 but had 70 less at bats.

As an example this total bases stat would say Neck is a better hitter than Jesus Aguilar of the Brewers which I am sure even you wouldn't agree with (he has a whole 0.1 better slugging percentage). Aguilar was healthy all season as far as I know, he just took some games off. And the games he took off you can conservatively assume replacement level people replaced him and that position would have had more total bases. It isn't like if neck doesn't play we put a scarecrow out there.

Also if nicks on the dodgers he doesn’t play all 162 games! Last year he would probably not have even been able to crack their roster, teams that are rebuilding are much more willing to give away at bats though. Teams usually rest their guys and take advantage of depth and splits. It isn't a fair comparison. Like saying Elijah Holyfield doesn't have near the rushing yards of Travyeon Williams, so obviously Travyeon is a better rusher.

I like nick but seriously he’s not a top tier hitter man. If you haven't bee convinced yet you probably never will be though, in which case I don't really care to hash it out anymore.
Are you kidding ? Total bases is listed on any basic profile of every player who ever played MLB.
Hank Aaron has 11.8% more career total bases than anybody else in history, it's one of my favorite stats. You must have that stat mixed up with something else.

Also Markakis would have been The Dodgers 3rd or 4th best hitter in 2017.
He would have been their tenth best hitter with over 120 ab and worst defender on their team at their position. If you are defending kakes 2017 as being good idk what to say

what about in 2018?

corai3

I say the braves try and sign two guys. AJ Pollack and Yasmani Grandal. Pollack should be able to be picked up for cheap with his injury history and Grandal would be a major upgrade at catcher. If you can get nick for less than the 11 mill we paid last year then good. Sign all 3 so we have a reliable 4th outfielder.

Kirbstomper

@donm This surprised me when I looked at it. First of all, Max Muncy killed it this year and I didn’t realize exactly how good he was. As for The Neck he again would have been the tenth best hitter with over 200 at bats on the Dodgers in 2018, counting Machado. This is per WRC+ which is basically “runs created per at bat”.

For @WCDawg I also checked total bases. In terms of total bases per at bat, or slugging percentage, he would be 11th on the dodgers in 2018. In terms of total bases over the total year he would have been 1st on the dodgers. Do you think the dodgers would have let him get 700 at bats?

He would have been the third worst defender on their team, due to Matt kemp being a bloated whale in the outfield and apparently yasiel puig is bad out there as well. He would have been the third worst base runner as well.

But since the dodgers are always an especially deep team I looked at the brewers as well. Nick would have been their 5th best hitter overall and 7th best slugging percentage of guy with over 200 ab.

Nick was probably a bit better than kemp this year, so I do feel like if we magically put him on the dodgers he would have kept a roster spot and potentially a starting spot on their team this year. He would likely not have started for the brewers, who had yelich Cain and Braun out there all being better than him (this doesn’t mean he is unworthy of starting for the brewers, just that they wouldn’t have had a spot for him).

Sure, it’s great he can play all 162 games and is durable. But if he is durable and bad it doesn’t matter. If we are giving 700 plate appearances to a below average player, the Braves are losers in that scenario.

WCDawg

@Kirbstomper said:
@WCDawg said:
@Kirbstomper said:
@WCDawg said:

@Kirbstomper said:

@WCDawg said:

@Kirbstomper said:
@WCDawg You have to face the facts that doubles and OBP are half the story, where the other half is not kind to nick. He defends poorly, and doesnt hit for much power.

I mean in 2017 he hit .275 with 39 doubles and an OBP of .354. Those numbers are good but he only had 8 homers, with an extra juiced ball in 2017, and this made him 6% below average offensively. He also had his worst defensive season ever. He accrued only 0.5 WAR in 670 plate appearances. That’s awful. I hope this convinces you that average OBP and doubles are an incomplete picture of a player.

So yeah he was pretty good this year but it’s hard to buy that he will be good again next year, much less 3 more years. Maybe he surprises me, I hope he does because I like him.

Doubles are power numbers, not as much as Hrs, but they are far more valuable than singles.
Look at total bases as well. If you're reducing baseball to mathematic purity it's a game of 27 outs in increments of 3 where the object is to have enough total bases within those increments of 3 outs to score runs. Markakis has averaged around 253 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a lot of advancing toward home plate. If you have a lineup with guys who have a lot of total bases, you're going to score a lot of runs.

To be honest you should look into how these numbers hold up against other people, because I feel like you don't understand that looks in context. Just saying he has 253 total bases is completely meaningless without context. You weren't even right by the way, he averaged 242.5 total bases per year over the last 4 years. If we divide this by his average at bats per year thats good for a 0.40 slugging percentage WHICH IS AN ENTIRE STANDARD DEVIATION BELOW THE 2018 MEAN. If you think Nick gets more total bases per at bat than the majority of the league you are wrong.

In 2018, which is again his best year since 2011 offensively, Nick had a slugging percentage of 0.44. Hooray for his career year! But still this was only good for 69'th in the league. The league average among all qualified players was 0.447. Again, in terms of total bases, Nick is below average. Even in a career year. All he did better than average this year was get an base, with the 29'th best OBP. This is a valued commodity and why he was 14% above average by WRC+.

So we can revise your statement to "Markakis has averaged around 242.5 total bases over his 4 seasons with The Braves, that is a low amount of advancing toward home plate and if this stat matters that much we should try to upgrade right field".

I am sure your next comment will either be something about how getting on base is now the thing you value the most. But if you want to talk total aggregate offensive production stats you should really just look at the WRC+ stat in the future. Stats people are smart man you should probably trust them.

The only think that pisses me off is when a poster thinks he or she knows what I'm thinking or about to post...**** and read...please.

Total bases is an isolated stat, so is OBP, both are essential to scoring runs.

While total bases are tied to a player's number of at bats, they are like wins for a pitcher, they tell you the player showed up and got the work done.

OBP is completely isolated and gives you a per at bat quantity, but for the sake of the list below I'm only counting players who had a minimum of 300 at bats, if you don't show up, you don't help the team.

I'm going to list where Markakis rated in total bases, OBP and xtra base hits for The Braves in each of his 4 seasons with the team and the 2 NL teams in this year's NLCS over those seasons.

The Braves
2018
total bases - 3rd
OBP - T-2nd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2017
total bases - 3rd
OBP - T-2nd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2016
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 3rd
xtra base hits - 2nd

2015
total bases - 1st
OBP - T-1st
xtra base hits - 2nd

The Brewers
2018
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 3rd

2017
total bases - 4th
OBP - 3rd

2016
total bases - 4th
OBP - 4th

2015
total bases - 3rd
OBP - 1st

Dodgers
2018
total bases - 1st
OBP - 3rd

2017
total bases - 5th
OBP - T-3rd

2016
total bases - 4th
OBP - 4th

2015
total bases - 2nd
OBP - 2nd

So where is this league where Markakis's 4 year performance in these basic and essential run production producing areas not good ?

You don't fall ass backwards into a player who averages out as your 2nd most productive hitter over 4 seasons.
      
Nobody really cares about pitcher wins, at least not people who understand the relevance of pitcher wins to pitcher performance. And you're the only person I have ever seen reference total bases. It isn't even a stat you can look up, you have to manually calculate it .

So yeah total bases are going to be positively correlated with games played or at bats. Sure nick gets kudos for being healthy, and that matters. He played literally every game this year so aggregate stats are going to be skewed in his favor. Cody Bellinger also played all 162 but had 70 less at bats.

As an example this total bases stat would say Neck is a better hitter than Jesus Aguilar of the Brewers which I am sure even you wouldn't agree with (he has a whole 0.1 better slugging percentage). Aguilar was healthy all season as far as I know, he just took some games off. And the games he took off you can conservatively assume replacement level people replaced him and that position would have had more total bases. It isn't like if neck doesn't play we put a scarecrow out there.

Also if nicks on the dodgers he doesn’t play all 162 games! Last year he would probably not have even been able to crack their roster, teams that are rebuilding are much more willing to give away at bats though. Teams usually rest their guys and take advantage of depth and splits. It isn't a fair comparison. Like saying Elijah Holyfield doesn't have near the rushing yards of Travyeon Williams, so obviously Travyeon is a better rusher.

I like nick but seriously he’s not a top tier hitter man. If you haven't bee convinced yet you probably never will be though, in which case I don't really care to hash it out anymore.
Are you kidding ? Total bases is listed on any basic profile of every player who ever played MLB.
Hank Aaron has 11.8% more career total bases than anybody else in history, it's one of my favorite stats. You must have that stat mixed up with something else.

Also Markakis would have been The Dodgers 3rd or 4th best hitter in 2017.
He would have been their tenth best hitter with over 120 ab and worst defender on their team at their position. If you are defending kakes 2017 as being good idk what to say

I think you're way off...WAY OFF.

WCDawg

@corai3 said:
I say the braves try and sign two guys. AJ Pollack and Yasmani Grandal. Pollack should be able to be picked up for cheap with his injury history and Grandal would be a major upgrade at catcher. If you can get nick for less than the 11 mill we paid last year then good. Sign all 3 so we have a reliable 4th outfielder.

Suzuki has pretty good numbers, but not doubt having more overall production.
I'd pass on AJ Pollack though. I want OBPs around the.350 level or higher. My baseline would be around .350 OBP 30+ doubles and 20 HR to add a player for his bat.